Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).Are English teams excluded from this analysis?
I think these are the top 3:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1988-96
3 Independiente 1972-75
I donrCOt really know what order the rest should be put in. HererCOs a list of the other main candidates.
Santos 1962-63
Internazionale 1964-66
Estudiantes de La Plata 1968-71
Ajax 1971-73
Bayern Munchen 1974-76
Boca Juniors 1977-79
Sao Paulo 1992-94
Barcelona 2009-11
Real Madrid 2014-18
Penarol 1960-62
And an honourable mention to Velez Sarsfield 1994. They beat the Sao Paulo team of 1992-94 in the final of the Copa Libertadores and then beat AC MilanrCOs team of 1988-96 to win the World Club Championship. They must have been a very good team. Without any other international titles, I donrCOt think they won enough to earn a place in the top 10 of all time though.
LetrCOs see if we can work together to compile a Top 10.
How would you rate these teams?
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I think these are the top 3:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1988-96
3 Independiente 1972-75
I donrCOt really know what order the rest should be put in. HererCOs a list of the other main candidates.
Santos 1962-63
Internazionale 1964-66
Estudiantes de La Plata 1968-71
Ajax 1971-73
Bayern Munchen 1974-76
Boca Juniors 1977-79
Sao Paulo 1992-94
Barcelona 2009-11
Real Madrid 2014-18
Penarol 1960-62
And an honourable mention to Velez Sarsfield 1994. They beat the Sao Paulo team of 1992-94 in the final of the Copa Libertadores and then beat AC MilanrCOs team of 1988-96 to win the World Club Championship. They must have been a very good team. Without any other international titles, I donrCOt think they won enough to earn a place in the top 10 of all time though.
LetrCOs see if we can work together to compile a Top 10.
How would you rate these teams?
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 3:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I think these are the top 3:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1988-96
3 Independiente 1972-75
[ Snip ]
How would you rate these teams?
Are English teams excluded from this analysis?
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the second most successful country in European competition, which in itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders this a not very objective analysis.
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 3:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the
international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I think these are the top 3:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1988-96
3 Independiente 1972-75
[ Snip ]
How would you rate these teams?
Are English teams excluded from this analysis?
Of course they are! ;-)
I thought most people here knew of the anti-English bias in some
quarters of RSS. Some of it deserved, some of it not.
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders this
a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football during
that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't know who would fit the criteria.
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders this
a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC.-a Maybe you are confusing the European Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't know
who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to-a May 1981 as a window (shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies),-a you come to 4 leagues title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.-a Reasonable continuity in the team too,-a (Clemence, Neal, Thompson, Kennedy throughout)
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders
this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC.-a Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't
know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to-a May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies),-a you come to 4 leagues
title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.
Reasonable continuity in the team too,-a (Clemence, Neal, Thompson,
Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in his
nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your >>>> self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders
this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley.
The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't
know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues
title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.
Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson,
Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in hisFor sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for
nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.
others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not
really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing
players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's
list is wrong headed and even malicious.
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 1:50:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the >>>> second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your >>>> self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders
this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in >>> any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football >>> during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley.
The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't
know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues >> title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup. >> Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson,
Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in his nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.For sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing
players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions.
In terms of prestige, the World Club Championship is a small fraction of the prestige of the European Champions League.This reminds me of the discussions we would have with our South American friends in RSS in the mid 1990s...
You may disagree, but what I am saying is the prevailing view of almost all top players, coaches, management, and fans.
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.
Please read again.-a I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley.
The first was under Shankly.-a I know they won three European cups - see below.
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in his
nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.
For sure.-a But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8-a for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not
really the same team.-a Although assuring continuity and replacing
players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's
list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions. The majority of the teams I've mentioned have either won their continental Championship at least 3 years in a row, or the World Club Championship at least twice.
By the way, it's not completely unreasonable to take the position that that Liverpool club was not really all that great. Yes, a lot of domestic dominance and European success, but at a time, where there was basically no opposition.
On 2021-10-08 10:20, Futbolmetrix wrote:
By the way, it's not completely unreasonable to take the position that that Liverpool club was not really all that great. Yes, a lot of domestic dominance and European success, but at a time, where there was basically no opposition.That is a little unfair, given that rival teams in the English first division (as it was then) also won the European cup then. In fact, as
you would remember it, there was a period from 1977 to 1984 when only England based teams won the European cup (since 1983 did not happen,
right?) . And in that time we had Ipswich and Spurs winning the UEFA
cup as well, with Everton getting the CWC in 1985.
So a bit disingenuous to suggest winning the league was a stroll for Liverpool. They won the league by 1 point in 1976, again by 1 in 1977,
came second to Forest the following year, won by 8 in 1979, then 2 in
1980. 5th place in 1981. Then 4, 11, and 3 point margins.
(interesting to look at all the second placed teams as they included
QPR, Man United, Ipswich, Forest, and Watford. Possibly a sign of a competitive league)
As for European competition, the Bundesliga was very strong at the time,
and even had all 4 semifinalists in the UEFA cup one year. Italy and
Spain might not have been up to usual standards, but then the smaller leagues (Belgium, Sweden, eastern Europe) were producing impressive teams. And if you look at the members of that team (whose superstars were the backbone of the Scottish national team), what did they ever achieve at international level?
No Scots in 1977, a fair number after (along with key Irishmen like Lawrenson and Whelan, and a Welshman (Rush).
Were they the backbone of the Scotland team ? Hansen did not get picked nearly often enough (some coaches preferred Miller and MacLeish), and Dalglish only rarely played as well for Scotland as he did for Celtic
and Liverpool. Not sure why. But Scotland's capacity for self
destruction at world cups is one of the certainties of this world. They should have at least made it out of the group stage in 1978, 1982, and 1986
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 10:34:43 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 1:50:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the >>>> second most successful country in European competition, which in >>>> itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your >>>> self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders >>>> this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in >>> any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football >>> during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley.
The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't >>> know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues >> title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup. >> Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson,
Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in his nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.For sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing
players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions.In terms of prestige, the World Club Championship is a small fraction of the prestige of the European Champions League. You may disagree, but what I am saying is the prevailing view of almost all top players, coaches, management, and fans.
Anyway, what are we going to do about Milan? How many players have to still be playing for them for them to still be regarded as the same team? And should we be thinking team (as in regular starting 11), or squad?Maldini, Baresi and Donadoni were regular starters throughout the whole period (1987-88 to 1995-1996). Costacurta made only a handful of appearances in the first year, then became a regular starter. Tassotti was on the roster the whole period, a regular starter up until the last two years, when his minutes started to drop off. Massaro was on the roster up until the end of the 1994-95 season, mostly part of the regular rotation. Filippo Galli was also on the roster the whole period, but he was mostly a bench player after the first couple of years when Costacurta emerged as the regular starter.
On 2021-10-08 10:20, Futbolmetrix wrote:
Well, I chose my words carefully. "It's not completely unreasonable" doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with the position. But my main point is that European Club football in the late 1970s-early 1980s was probably at its lowest in terms of quality at the very top (EC1 final between Nottingham Forest and Malmoe, seriously?). So being the best of a somewhat mediocre bunch is maybe less of an achievement than being the best in a different period.By the way, it's not completely unreasonable to take the position that that Liverpool club was not really all that great. Yes, a lot of domestic dominance and European success, but at a time, where there was basically no opposition.That is a little unfair,
So a bit disingenuous to suggest winning the league was a stroll for Liverpool. They won the league by 1 point in 1976, again by 1 in 1977,Competitive league = no outstanding teams.
came second to Forest the following year, won by 8 in 1979, then 2 in
1980. 5th place in 1981. Then 4, 11, and 3 point margins.
(interesting to look at all the second placed teams as they included
QPR, Man United, Ipswich, Forest, and Watford. Possibly a sign of a competitive league)
No Scots in 1977, a fair number after (along with key Irishmen like Lawrenson and Whelan, and a Welshman (Rush).Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If the 1983 EC1 final had been played and won by Juve, who would then have been favorite to win the 1984 final, then Trapattoni's Juve (with three straight ECs, and, say, two out of three ICs) would firmly be in the conversation among the very best of all time.
Were they the backbone of the Scotland team ? Hansen did not get picked nearly often enough (some coaches preferred Miller and MacLeish), and Dalglish only rarely played as well for Scotland as he did for Celtic
and Liverpool. Not sure why. But Scotland's capacity for self
destruction at world cups is one of the certainties of this world. They should have at least made it out of the group stage in 1978, 1982, and 1986
On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 6:09:19 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
Anyway, what are we going to do about Milan? How many players have to still be playing for them for them to still be regarded as the same team? And should we be thinking team (as in regular starting 11), or squad?Maldini, Baresi and Donadoni were regular starters throughout the whole period (1987-88 to 1995-1996). Costacurta made only a handful of appearances in the first year, then became a regular starter. Tassotti was on the roster the whole period, a regular starter up until the last two years, when his minutes started to drop off. Massaro was on the roster up until the end of the 1994-95 season, mostly part of the regular rotation. Filippo Galli was also on the roster the whole period, but he was mostly a bench player after the first couple of years when Costacurta emerged as the regular starter.
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:57:28 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 10:34:43 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 1:50:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in >>>> itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders >>>> this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley. The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't >>> know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues
title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.
Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson, >> Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in his nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.For sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by
team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's
list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Possibly players, coaches, management, and fans in England and Germany. Not in Italy or Spain or anywhere outside of Europe.Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions.In terms of prestige, the World Club Championship is a small fraction of the prestige of the European Champions League. You may disagree, but what I am saying is the prevailing view of almost all top players, coaches, management, and fans.
By the way, it's not completely unreasonable to take the position that that Liverpool club was not really all that great. Yes, a lot of domestic dominance and European success, but at a time, where there was basically no opposition. And if you look at the members of that team (whose superstars were the backbone of the Scottish national team), what did they ever achieve at international level?It's an interesting thought.
On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 6:09:19 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:57:28 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 10:34:43 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 1:50:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders
this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley. The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see
below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the
European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't
know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window
(shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues
title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.
Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson, >> Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in hisFor sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by
nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.
team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not
really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the
previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of
players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's
list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Nice try. It's the case everywhere in Europe now. You're trying to piggyback off Futbolmetrix's comment, where we clearly said that that *used* to be the case decades ago. It's no longer true.Possibly players, coaches, management, and fans in England and Germany. Not in Italy or Spain or anywhere outside of Europe.Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions.In terms of prestige, the World Club Championship is a small fraction of the prestige of the European Champions League. You may disagree, but what I am saying is the prevailing view of almost all top players, coaches, management, and fans.
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 1:47:02 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 6:09:19 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:57:28 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 10:34:43 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 1:50:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-08 04:03, Blueshirt wrote:
On 08/10/2021 01:09, MH wrote:
On 2021-10-07 16:17, Blueshirt wrote:
On 07/10/2021 15:57, Al Kamista wrote:
Don't see a single one, which is really odd because England is the
second most successful country in European competition, which in
itself is the highest level played in world football. Or is it your
self-proclaimed personal vendetta against England, which renders
this a not very objective analysis.
Liverpool FC of the Bob Paisley era (1974-1984) would surely rank in
any list of "greatest teams". Liverpool dominated European football
during that era: Three European Cups, two UEFA Cups
Only one under Paisley.
Nope!
Liverpool FC won three European Cups with Bob Paisley.Please read again. I said and meant only one UEFA cup under Paisley.
The first was under Shankly. I know they won three European cups - see
below.
In fact, Bob
Paisley was the first manager to win the European Cup three times.
and a Cup-Winners Cup.
Nope, Liverpool never won the CWC. Maybe you are confusing the >> European Super Cup.
Yes, I did mean the Super Cup.
If they were not one of the best football sides ever then I don't
know who would fit the criteria.
Certainly if you take only August 1975 to May 1981 as a window >> (shorter than some of the ones Mark specifies), you come to 4 leagues
title in 6 years, plus 3 European cups, 1 UEFA cup, and 1 league cup.
Reasonable continuity in the team too, (Clemence, Neal, Thompson,
Kennedy throughout)
Bob Paisley won six league titles and the three European Cups in hisFor sure. But again, the question here is what Mark originally meant by
nine seasons in charge of Liverpool FC.
team/side (and why he limited it to one season for some, and 8 for others). Turnover in 9 seasons is such that you could argue it is not
really the same team. Although assuring continuity and replacing players with ones who fit in and do the job as well or better than the
previous ones is a great accomplishment in and of itself, I think a lot
of people, when they talk of a great "side" are implying a nucleus of
players that remains fairly constant.
Anyway, the lack of inclusion of late 70s/early 80s Liverpool in Mark's
list is wrong headed and even malicious.
Even if your statement is correct, the prestige the World Club Championship had in the 1970s and 80s is what's relevant.Nice try. It's the case everywhere in Europe now. You're trying to piggyback off Futbolmetrix's comment, where we clearly said that that *used* to be the case decades ago. It's no longer true.Possibly players, coaches, management, and fans in England and Germany. Not in Italy or Spain or anywhere outside of Europe.Up till the turn of the century, no English team had been World Champions.In terms of prestige, the World Club Championship is a small fraction of the prestige of the European Champions League. You may disagree, but what I am saying is the prevailing view of almost all top players, coaches, management, and fans.
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:You can declare what you want, but in all the hullabaloo about Europe vs. South America, I failed to notice that you did not include Barcelona 2009-2015 (you can change the dates slightly if you prefer). That is a ridiculous omission. Given the quality of the team (also confirmed by the successes of Spain's NT during their peak), the influence it had on the game, and the quality of the opposition it had to beat to win its titles, I would actually put them at the very top.
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:05:34 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:Also, that Independiente team is way too high on the list. Sure, it was a great team, but at the time, repeating Libertadores titles was much easier, as the defending champions entered already at the semifinals. Plus, domestically they were very far from dominating. Only won one Metropolitano just before that period (1971), then were never even runners-up of the league until they won again in 1977.
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?You can declare what you want, but in all the hullabaloo about Europe vs. South America, I failed to notice that you did not include Barcelona 2009-2015 (you can change the dates slightly if you prefer). That is a ridiculous omission. Given the quality of the team (also confirmed by the successes of Spain's NT during their peak), the influence it had on the game, and the quality of the opposition it had to beat to win its titles, I would actually put them at the very top.
On pretty much any dimension, Barca 2009-2015 >> Milan 1989-1994.
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree?
And can I declare it the top 10 ever?
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
And can I declare it the top 10 ever? Does anyone want to present a case for Torino or River Plate's team of the 1940s or anyone? Or does anyone feel strongly that it should just be classed as the Top 10 since 1955?
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:05:34 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:I did mention Barca for consideration in the OP. 1 reason I didn't include them in the proposed Top 10 is because of the huge influence of money in the game this century. It's too easy for the top 3 teams in Spain, Italy, England, France and Germany to win titles these days, because the rest of the world can't hang onto their best players; so the level of the opposition away from the top is lower.
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?You can declare what you want, but in all the hullabaloo about Europe vs. South America, I failed to notice that you did not include Barcelona 2009-2015 (you can change the dates slightly if you prefer). That is a ridiculous omission. Given the quality of the team (also confirmed by the successes of Spain's NT during their peak), the influence it had on the game, and the quality of the opposition it had to beat to win its titles, I would actually put them at the very top.
On pretty much any dimension, Barca 2009-2015 >> Milan 1989-1994.
Whereas Real in the 1950s and Berlusconi's Milan were on a shoestring budget. Money has always been part of the game.On pretty much any dimension, Barca 2009-2015 >> Milan 1989-1994.I did mention Barca for consideration in the OP. 1 reason I didn't include them in the proposed Top 10 is because of the huge influence of money
in the game this century.
It's too easy for the top 3 teams inMaybe domestically. But the Champions League is extremely competitive. Winning it 3 times in seven years is a considerable accomplishment.
Spain, Italy, England, France and Germany to win titles these days,
because the rest of the world can't hang onto their best players; so the level of the opposition away from the top is lower.Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.
I don't think they won enough to be particularly high in the top 10 anyway.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 9:56:59 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:By the way, the only reason Barca didn't win three times in a row between 2009 and 2011 is the explosion of an Icelandic volcano that forced them to travel to Milan by bus for the key semifinal first leg. (and some questionable refereeing calls in that first leg, but I guess they even out with the calls they got at Stamford Bridge in 2009...)
Maybe domestically. But the Champions League is extremely competitive. Winning it 3 times in seven years is a considerable accomplishment.
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 12:03:30 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:You are literally all over the place.
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 4:05:34 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?You can declare what you want, but in all the hullabaloo about Europe vs. South America, I failed to notice that you did not include Barcelona 2009-2015 (you can change the dates slightly if you prefer). That is a ridiculous omission. Given the quality of the team (also confirmed by the successes of Spain's NT during their peak), the influence it had on the game, and the quality of the opposition it had to beat to win its titles, I would actually put them at the very top.
On pretty much any dimension, Barca 2009-2015 >> Milan 1989-1994.I did mention Barca for consideration in the OP. 1 reason I didn't include them in the proposed Top 10 is because of the huge influence of money in the game this century.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 9:56:59 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
I did mention Barca for consideration in the OP. 1 reason I didn't include >> them in the proposed Top 10 is because of the huge influence of money
in the game this century.
I don't think they won enough to be particularly high in the top 10 anyway.
Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.
Milan 1988-1994: 3 CLs, 2 ICs, 4 out of 7 domestic titles.
In terms of continental success, there is no question that Liverpool is up there with Barca and Milan. However, I would rank Liverpool below those two teams for the following reasons:Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.Liverpool FC 1975-1983: 3 CLs, 1 UEFA Cup, 6 out of 8 domestic titles.
Milan 1988-1994: 3 CLs, 2 ICs, 4 out of 7 domestic titles.
- Barca and Milan can credibly lay claim to being the best teams in the *world* at their time. Sure, Liverpool can say that they didn't care about the IC, but you can't also claim to be the best in he world if you don't prove it on the field. Liverpool's problem.Blueshirt, you are Chelsea fan, right? So make sure that you and your fanmates make the team feel that the CWC matters, because 20 years down the road you will be in some internet debate arguing where Chelsea 2021 ranks among the all time greats, and at least for some people that will matter.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:40:45 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
- Barca and Milan can credibly lay claim to being the best teams in the *world* at their time. Sure, Liverpool can say that they didn't care about the IC, but you can't also claim to be the best in he world if you don't prove it on the field. Liverpool's problem.
Blueshirt, you are Chelsea fan, right? So make sure that you and your fanmates make the team feel that the CWC matters, because 20 years down the road you will be in some internet debate arguing where Chelsea 2021 ranks among the all time greats, and at least for some people that will matter.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:19:33 PM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.Liverpool FC 1975-1983: 3 CLs, 1 UEFA Cup, 6 out of 8 domestic titles.
Milan 1988-1994: 3 CLs, 2 ICs, 4 out of 7 domestic titles.
In terms of continental success, there is no question that Liverpool is up there with Barca and Milan. However, I would rank Liverpool below those two teams for the following reasons:
- Barca and Milan boasted some all-time greats (Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta), who also demonstrated their greatness at the international level. With all due respect, none of the Liverpool players of the 1970s-1980s rise to that level.
- Barca and Milan are also historically significant teams because of how they influenced the way the game is played. Sacchi's systematic pressing and Guardiola's juego de posicion. The same cannot be said about Liverpool.
- Barca and Milan can credibly lay claim to being the best teams in the *world* at their time. Sure, Liverpool can say that they didn't care about the IC, but you can't also claim to be the best in he world if you don't prove it on the field. Liverpool's problem.
- Winning the CL in Barca's time was a lot more difficult than winning it
Having said that, Liverpool 1977-1984 clearly belongs in any list of the top European club teams of all time, but I wouldn't put them at the very top.
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 9:56:59 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:Not to the extent it is now. The financial gulf between the rich 5 of western Europe and the rest of the world is FAR bigger than it was back then.
On pretty much any dimension, Barca 2009-2015 >> Milan 1989-1994.
I did mention Barca for consideration in the OP. 1 reason I didn't include them in the proposed Top 10 is because of the huge influence of moneyWhereas Real in the 1950s and Berlusconi's Milan were on a shoestring budget. Money has always been part of the game.
in the game this century.
Fair enough. Looks like I was wrong there.It's too easy for the top 3 teams inMaybe domestically. But the Champions League is extremely competitive. Winning it 3 times in seven years is a considerable accomplishment.
Spain, Italy, England, France and Germany to win titles these days,
because the rest of the world can't hang onto their best players; so the level of the opposition away from the top is lower.
I don't think they won enough to be particularly high in the top 10 anyway.Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.
Milan 1988-1994: 3 CLs, 2 ICs, 4 out of 7 domestic titles.
While Milan may have had more competition at home and across the Atlantic, winning the CL in the CL era was orders of magnitude harder than winning the EC1 in Milan's time (remember also that Milan's first two titles came with the English teams out due to the ban).In Milan's era there was competition from Crvena Zvezda, Steaua Bucuresti and others from Eastern Europe, and teams from Portugal and the Netherlands etc. In the CL era, you get more competition from Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen, Chelsea, Man City and RB Leipzig than from anywhere outside the rich 5 of western Europe. It's got to be easier to win it now surely?
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:40:45 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:Then you should also be a little more consistent in your criteria. On the one hand, you play up the prestige of the CWC in these analyses, but on the other you downplay Liverpool's 70s/80s ECs because you question the strength of their competition (which I don't disagree with). As discussed here many times, the format of the CWC is laughable when we are talking big boy trophies. For European clubs, you play a semifinal against an Asian, African, or NAan team, the level of which is probably at that of a 2nd or 3rd tier team from their own country, and then one match against a SAan team, which Europe now wins a vast majority of the time. So one truly competitive match. A domestic cup in one of Europe's big 5 leagues is much harder to win than the CWC.
- Barca and Milan can credibly lay claim to being the best teams in the *world* at their time. Sure, Liverpool can say that they didn't care about the IC, but you can't also claim to be the best in he world if you don't prove it on the field. Liverpool's problem.Blueshirt, you are Chelsea fan, right? So make sure that you and your fanmates make the team feel that the CWC matters, because 20 years down the road you will be in some internet debate arguing where Chelsea 2021 ranks among the all time greats, and at least for some people that will matter.
Not to the extent it is now. The financial gulf between the rich 5 of western Europe and the rest of the world is FAR bigger than it was back then.Agreed. That's why the accomplishments today are more valuable than the ones of 40 years ago.
In Milan's era there was competition from Crvena Zvezda, Steaua Bucuresti and others from Eastern Europe, and teams fromBecause you have to travel to less distant places? Yes, maybe that factors in a bit. But in terms of quality there is not a shadow of a doubt that your typical CL team in the knockout rounds is a lot better than the typical R16 participant of 40 years ago.
Portugal and the Netherlands etc. In the CL era, you get more competition from Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen, Chelsea, Man
City and RB Leipzig than from anywhere outside the rich 5 of western Europe. It's got to be easier to win it now surely?
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:48:30 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:Good point. If modern day CL =100, then I would say:
Blueshirt, you are Chelsea fan, right? So make sure that you and your fanmates make the team feel that the CWC matters, because 20 years down the road you will be in some internet debate arguing where Chelsea 2021 ranks among the all time greats, and at least for some people that will matter.Then you should also be a little more consistent in your criteria. On the one hand, you play up the prestige of the CWC in these analyses, but on the other you downplay Liverpool's 70s/80s ECs because you question the strength of their competition (which I don't disagree with). As discussed here many times, the format of the CWC is laughable when we are talking big boy trophies. For European clubs, you play a semifinal against an Asian, African, or NAan team, the level of which is probably at that of a 2nd or 3rd tier team from their own country, and then one match against a SAan team, which Europe now wins a vast majority of the time. So one truly competitive match. A domestic cup in one of Europe's big 5 leagues is much harder to win than the CWC.
So if you want to play up difficulty of winning, then the CWC shouldn't seriously be in the conversation, or weighed very very lightly.
On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 11:06:24 AM UTC-4, alka... wrote:Really??
On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 4:48:30 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
Blueshirt, you are Chelsea fan, right? So make sure that you and your fanmates make the team feel that the CWC matters, because 20 years down the road you will be in some internet debate arguing where Chelsea 2021 ranks among the all time greats, and at least for some people that will matter.
Then you should also be a little more consistent in your criteria. On the one hand, you play up the prestige of the CWC in these analyses, but on the other you downplay Liverpool's 70s/80s ECs because you question the strength of their competition (which I don't disagree with). As discussed here many times, the format of the CWC is laughable when we are talking big boy trophies. For European clubs, you play a semifinal against an Asian, African, or NAan team, the level of which is probably at that of a 2nd or 3rd tier team from their own country, and then one match against a SAan team, which Europe now wins a vast majority of the time. So one truly competitive match. A domestic cup in one of Europe's big 5 leagues is much harder to win than the CWC.
So if you want to play up difficulty of winning, then the CWC shouldn't seriously be in the conversation, or weighed very very lightly.Good point. If modern day CL =100, then I would say:
1970s-1980s EC1: 90
1970s-1980s IC: 85
2000s CWC: 65
On Saturday, October 16, 2021 at 5:06:19 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:Because the opposition can't hang onto their best players, and is therefore weaker?
Not to the extent it is now. The financial gulf between the rich 5 of western Europe and the rest of the world is FAR bigger than it was back then.Agreed. That's why the accomplishments today are more valuable than the ones of 40 years ago.
No, because Serbia, Romania, Portugal, Netherlands etc had better teams.In Milan's era there was competition from Crvena Zvezda, Steaua Bucuresti and others from Eastern Europe, and teams fromBecause you have to travel to less distant places? Yes, maybe that factors in a bit.
Portugal and the Netherlands etc. In the CL era, you get more competition from Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen, Chelsea, Man
City and RB Leipzig than from anywhere outside the rich 5 of western Europe. It's got to be easier to win it now surely?
First, it's just a logical argument: teams that can accumulate the best talent from all over the world are going to be better on average than teams that have to restrict themselves to players born in Yugoslavia or Romania only.True, but teams that can't even hang onto players wherever they're born are going to be weaker opponents.
Second, we can actually compare the quality of the two groups of teams using ClubElo ratings.
These are the ClubElo ratings on October 1, 1977 (a random date from the Liverpool era):
http://clubelo.com/1977-10-01/UCL
1 ENG 1 Liverpool 1890 1977-09-24 Bob Paisley (since 1974-08-26)
2 ITA 2 Juventus 1864 1977-09-28 Giovanni Trapattoni (since 1976-07-01)
3 FRG 5 Gladbach 1819 1977-09-28 Udo Lattek (since 1975-07-01)
4 GDR 12 Dresden 1783 1977-09-28 Walter Fritzsch (since 1969-07-01)
5 BEL 15 Brugge 1767 1977-09-28 Ernst Happel (since 1974-01-21)
6 ESP 16 Atl|-tico 1763 1977-09-28 Luis Aragon|-s (since 1974-11-26)
7 NED 19 Ajax 1758 1977-09-28 Tomislav Ivi-c (since 1976-07-01)
8 POR 27 Benfica 1730 1977-09-28 John Mortimore (since 1976-07-01)
9 FRA 58 Nantes 1662 (-0.2) 1977-09-30 Jean Vincent (since 1976-07-01)
10 BUL 66 -c-|-#-U-|-+ 1643 1977-09-28 Ivan Vutsov (since 1977-07-01)
11 YUG 75 Crvena Zvezda 1636 1977-09-28 Gojko Zec (since 1976-07-01)
12 SCO Celtic 1572 1977-09-28 Jock Stein (since 1965-07-01)
13 AUT Wacker Innsbruck 1542 (+1.1) 1977-09-30 Georg Ke|fler (since 1977-07-01)
14 GRE +a+#+++#+++++++#-e+|-i-e 1522 1977-09-28 Kazimierz G||rski (since 1976-12-04)
15 DEN FC K|+benhavn 1425 1977-09-28
16 NIR Glentoran 1256 1977-09-29
There is a more than 600 point gap between the best team and the worst, and about 200 points between number 1 and the median.
What about Februray 1, 2009, the year of Barcelona's first triumph? http://clubelo.com/2009-02-01/UCL
1 ENG 1 Man United 1997 (+2.8) 2009-01-31 Alex Ferguson (since 1986-11-06)
2 ESP 2 Barcelona 1962 2009-01-24 Pep Guardiola (since 2008-07-01)
3 ENG 3 Chelsea 1948 2009-01-28 Luiz Felipe Scolari (since 2008-07-01)
4 ENG 4 Liverpool 1940 2009-01-28 Rafa Ben|!tez (since 2004-06-16)
5 ESP 5 Real Madrid 1900 (+5.2) 2009-01-31 Juande Ramos (since 2008-12-09)
6 ITA 6 Inter 1886 2009-01-28 Jos|- Mourinho (since 2008-07-01)
7 ENG 7 Arsenal 1875 (-5.9) 2009-01-31 Ars|?ne Wenger (since 1996-10-01)
8 GER 9 Bayern 1847 2009-01-30 J|+rgen Klinsmann (since 2008-07-01)
9 ITA 10 Roma 1843 2009-01-28 Luciano Spalletti (since 2005-07-01)
10 ESP 11 Atl|-tico 1841 2009-01-25 Javier Aguirre (since 2006-07-01)
11 ITA 12 Juventus 1838 (-14.3) 2009-01-31 Claudio Ranieri (since 2007-07-01)
12 ESP 13 Villarreal 1837 2009-01-24 Manuel Pellegrini (since 2004-07-01)
13 FRA 15 Lyon 1816 2009-01-17 Claude Puel (since 2008-07-01)
14 POR 16 Porto 1811 2009-01-24 Jesualdo Ferreira (since 2006-08-15)
15 POR 41 Sporting 1716 (-5.5) 2009-01-31 Paulo Bento (since 2005-10-18)
16 GRE 63 +a+#+++#+++++++#-e+|-i-e 1679 2009-01-24 Henk ten Cate (since 2008-06-13)
The gap between top and bottom is much lower (about 330 points), and so is the gap between top and median (about 150 points)And what about the earlier rounds, where (now) weak teams like Ajax, Crvena Zvezda, and Dynamo Kyiv have to play? What's the ClubElo ratings for the whole tournament?
I could look at other years as well, but my impression is that you would get a similar picture. I agree that it was more difficult to *be* in the last 16 in the old days (because you had to win the championship the previous year), but once you were there, the quality of opposition you faced was substantially weaker.
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
And can I declare it the top 10 ever? Does anyone want to present a case for Torino or River Plate's team of the 1940s or anyone? Or does anyone feel strongly that it should just be classed as the Top 10 since 1955?
After a 6 match group stage, Bayern had to beat Chelsea, Barcelona, Lyon, and PSG to win the CL.I never said that "how challenging it is to win a trophy" is the only criteria. By that token, winning the league should always be weighted more heavily than winning the EC1/CL, because you have demonstrate consistency week in and week out (and given the trophy case of the team I support, I would have a strong incentive to make that case, but I don't).
In the CWC, they beat Al Ahly and Tigres to win the cup.
You're weighing that as 65% of the achievement of winning a CL? On what basis? Because clearly it has little do to with how challenging it was to win a said trophy, which you have already touted as a key criteria for measuring greatness.
On Sunday, October 17, 2021 at 10:31:00 PM UTC-4, alka... wrote:OK, fair enough.
After a 6 match group stage, Bayern had to beat Chelsea, Barcelona, Lyon, and PSG to win the CL.I never said that "how challenging it is to win a trophy" is the only criteria. By that token, winning the league should always be weighted more heavily than winning the EC1/CL, because you have demonstrate consistency week in and week out (and given the trophy case of the team I support, I would have a strong incentive to make that case, but I don't).
In the CWC, they beat Al Ahly and Tigres to win the cup.
You're weighing that as 65% of the achievement of winning a CL? On what basis? Because clearly it has little do to with how challenging it was to win a said trophy, which you have already touted as a key criteria for measuring greatness.
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 9:05:34 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:I can't make an absolute top 10, but will nominate South American candidates to a top 30 (?):
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
And can I declare it the top 10 ever? Does anyone want to present a case for Torino or River Plate's team of the 1940s or anyone? Or does anyone feel strongly that it should just be classed as the Top 10 since 1955?Does anybody else want to propose a Top 10?
I just really struggle to see how such a ceremonial and (relatively) easy to win trophy should count so significantly towardsOn the road to the 1977 European Cup, Liverpool beat Crusaders (Northern Ireland) and Trabzonspor (Turkish club football at the time was not much better than Northern Irish club football). How many players from those teams could a typical 1970s Liverpool fan name?
all-time greatness. It doesn't matter how much prestige some countries attached to it (which is largely an emotional
concept), when the actual accomplishment entails beating a minnow (which most people can't name a single player from),
and a South American team which is only halfway decent (compared to the European giants).
On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:36:08 AM UTC-4, alka.. wrote:Yes, and they then went on to beat St. Etienne, FC Zurich, and Borussia M for the title. Etienne and BM were very respectable European teams at the time. In the same competition, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, and Benfica (a proper powerhouse then) were eliminated. The key point is that it was a proper competition, with a proper format and several very strong teams.
I just really struggle to see how such a ceremonial and (relatively) easy to win trophy should count so significantly towardsOn the road to the 1977 European Cup, Liverpool beat Crusaders (Northern Ireland) and Trabzonspor (Turkish club football at the time was not much better than Northern Irish club football). How many players from those teams could a typical 1970s Liverpool fan name?
all-time greatness. It doesn't matter how much prestige some countries attached to it (which is largely an emotional
concept), when the actual accomplishment entails beating a minnow (which most people can't name a single player from),
and a South American team which is only halfway decent (compared to the European giants).
Em quarta-feira, 20 de outubro de 2021 |as 08:19:43 UTC-3, Mark escreveu:I won't rank each team, but I'd say:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 9:05:34 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
I can't make an absolute top 10, but will nominate South American candidates to a top 30 (?):And can I declare it the top 10 ever? Does anyone want to present a case for Torino or River Plate's team of the 1940s or anyone? Or does anyone feel strongly that it should just be classed as the Top 10 since 1955?Does anybody else want to propose a Top 10?
Santos 61-68: 2 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 6/10 cup/league titles (Pel|-, Gilmar, Zito, Dorval, Coutinho, Pepe)(Was that Cafu that played in 3 World Cup Finals?)
Pe|#arol 58-68: 3 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 9/11 league titles (N|-stor Gon|oalves, Spencer, Joya)
Independiente 70-75: 4 Libertadores, 1 ICC, 2/12 league titles (Bochini, Pavoni, Balbuena, Commisso, S|i, Galv|in)
Boca Juniors 00-03: 3 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 2/8 league titles (Riquelme, T|-vez, Abbondanzieri, Schiavi, Burdisso)
S|uo Paulo 91-93: 2 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 1/3 league titles (Cafu, Ra|!, Zetti, M|+ller)
Flamengo 80-83: 1 Libertadores, 1 ICC, 3/4 league titles (Zico, J||nior, Moser, Andrade, Leandro, Ad|!lio, Tita, Nunes)(Cicinho was a good player too)
S|uo Paulo 05-08: 1 Libertadores, 1 CWC, 3/4 league titles (Rog|-rio Ceni, J||nior, Souza, Alo|!sio)
Internacional 06-10: 2 Libertadores, 1 CWC, 1 Sudamericana (Fernand|uo, Clemer, |indio, Alex Raphael, D'Alessandro)Olimpia 78-83: 1 Libertadores, 1 ICC (vs. Malm||, but hey!), 6/6 league titles Tier 3:
River Plate 96-00: 1 Libertadores, 1 Supercopa, 5/8 league titles (Gallardo, Salas, Sor|!n, Saviola, Aimar)
Vasco da Gama 97-00: 1 Libertadores, 1 Mercosur, 2/4 league titles (Juninho Pernambucano, Edmundo, Mauro Galv|uo, Felipe, Pedrinho)
Internacional 75-79: 3/5 league titles, one unbeaten (Falc|uo, Figueroa, Valdomiro, Ca|oapava, Batista, Jair)Why didn't you include Estudiantes 1968-71: 3 Copa Libertadores, 1 runners-up, 1 IC, 0/8 league titles (maybe that's why!) or Velez Sarsfield 1993-98: 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 IC, 4/11 league titles ?
Gr|-mio 94-97: 1 Libertadores, 1/4 league titles + 2/4 cups (Danrlei, Paulo Nunes, Dinho, Carlos Miguel)
Palmeiras 93-94: back-to-back league titles with a great team (Edmundo, Zinho, C|-sar Sampaio, Mazinho, Evair)
Corinthians 98-00: 1 CWC, back-to-back league titles (Ed|!lson, Marcelinho Carioca, Ricardinho, Rinc||n, Luiz|uo)
The current Libertadores finalist teams of Palmeiras and Flamengo are worthy candidates to joining this list. They've been strong for a while.
On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 5:45:04 PM UTC+1, jesus...@gmail.com wrote:Yes.
Em quarta-feira, 20 de outubro de 2021 |as 08:19:43 UTC-3, Mark escreveu:
On Thursday, October 14, 2021 at 9:05:34 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 8:59:51 AM UTC+1, Mark wrote:
Who are the Top 10 best football club sides ever? (or since the international club tournaments were invented around 1956 anyway).
I propose this as our top 10 best club sides ever:
1 Real Madrid 1956-60
2 AC Milan 1989 (or 88)-94 (or 95 or 96)
3 Independiente 1972-75
4 Sao Paulo 1992-94
5 Real Madrid 2014-18
6 Ajax 1971-73
7 Bayern Munchen 1974-76
8 Santos 1962-63
9 Internazionale 1964-66
10 Boca Juniors 1977-79
Agree? Disagree? Can I officially declare this the rss Top 10?
I won't rank each team, but I'd say:I can't make an absolute top 10, but will nominate South American candidates to a top 30 (?):And can I declare it the top 10 ever? Does anyone want to present a case for Torino or River Plate's team of the 1940s or anyone? Or does anyone feel strongly that it should just be classed as the Top 10 since 1955?Does anybody else want to propose a Top 10?
Tier 1:
Santos 61-68: 2 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 6/10 cup/league titles (Pel|-, Gilmar, Zito, Dorval, Coutinho, Pepe)(Was that Cafu that played in 3 World Cup Finals?)
Pe|#arol 58-68: 3 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 9/11 league titles (N|-stor Gon|oalves, Spencer, Joya)
Independiente 70-75: 4 Libertadores, 1 ICC, 2/12 league titles (Bochini, Pavoni, Balbuena, Commisso, S|i, Galv|in)
Boca Juniors 00-03: 3 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 2/8 league titles (Riquelme, T|-vez, Abbondanzieri, Schiavi, Burdisso)
S|uo Paulo 91-93: 2 Libertadores, 2 ICC, 1/3 league titles (Cafu, Ra|!, Zetti, M|+ller)
Tier 2:Good team, but a very dirty one. They would use every trick to win, no matter what. Even had the motto "La gloria o Devoto" (the glory or Devoto, the name of a Buenos Aires prison).
Flamengo 80-83: 1 Libertadores, 1 ICC, 3/4 league titles (Zico, J||nior, Moser, Andrade, Leandro, Ad|!lio, Tita, Nunes)(Cicinho was a good player too)
S|uo Paulo 05-08: 1 Libertadores, 1 CWC, 3/4 league titles (Rog|-rio Ceni, J||nior, Souza, Alo|!sio)
Internacional 06-10: 2 Libertadores, 1 CWC, 1 Sudamericana (Fernand|uo, Clemer, |indio, Alex Raphael, D'Alessandro)Olimpia 78-83: 1 Libertadores, 1 ICC (vs. Malm||, but hey!), 6/6 league titles
River Plate 96-00: 1 Libertadores, 1 Supercopa, 5/8 league titles (Gallardo, Salas, Sor|!n, Saviola, Aimar)
Vasco da Gama 97-00: 1 Libertadores, 1 Mercosur, 2/4 league titles (Juninho Pernambucano, Edmundo, Mauro Galv|uo, Felipe, Pedrinho)
Tier 3:
Internacional 75-79: 3/5 league titles, one unbeaten (Falc|uo, Figueroa, Valdomiro, Ca|oapava, Batista, Jair)
Gr|-mio 94-97: 1 Libertadores, 1/4 league titles + 2/4 cups (Danrlei, Paulo Nunes, Dinho, Carlos Miguel)
Palmeiras 93-94: back-to-back league titles with a great team (Edmundo, Zinho, C|-sar Sampaio, Mazinho, Evair)
Corinthians 98-00: 1 CWC, back-to-back league titles (Ed|!lson, Marcelinho Carioca, Ricardinho, Rinc||n, Luiz|uo)
The current Libertadores finalist teams of Palmeiras and Flamengo are worthy candidates to joining this list. They've been strong for a while.Why didn't you include Estudiantes 1968-71: 3 Copa Libertadores, 1 runners-up, 1 IC, 0/8 league titles (maybe that's why!)
or Velez Sarsfield 1993-98: 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 IC, 4/11 league titles ?I've almost included them. Maybe I should. Chilavert, Gareca, Basualdo. Good spot!
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