• Sporting CP v Manchester City [R]

    From Real Mardin@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Tue Feb 15 14:44:34 2022
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:
    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5
    (Mahrez 7)
    (Silva 17, 44 & 58)
    (Foden 32)
    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.
    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.
    These two teams play in the same "Champions League" but in reality are in a different division in terms of quality.
    There are far too many of these one sided results in the group stages and earlier knockout rounds of the Champions League. When I see a result like this I find myself wondering whether the vehement opposition to the European Super League was a missed opportunity to fix a problem that has gone on for too long. Teams like Manchester City need to be in a European tournament with teams of their own level and likewise Sporting need to be in a tournament where they can be competitive an not subjected to the kind of humiliating result they suffered tonight.
    RM
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Binder Dundat@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Tue Feb 15 14:57:49 2022
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 5:44:36 p.m. UTC-5, Real Mardin wrote:
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:


    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5

    (Mahrez 7)
    (Silva 17, 44 & 58)
    (Foden 32)


    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.

    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.

    These two teams play in the same "Champions League" but in reality are in a different division in terms of quality.

    There are far too many of these one sided results in the group stages and earlier knockout rounds of the Champions League. When I see a result like this I find myself wondering whether the vehement opposition to the European Super League was a missed opportunity to fix a problem that has gone on for too long. Teams like Manchester City need to be in a European tournament with teams of their own level and likewise Sporting need to be in a tournament where they can be competitive an not subjected to the kind of humiliating result they suffered tonight.

    RM
    Yeah, I am sorta watching this in the background as I make dinner. Already 3-0 in the first 30 minutes and you cant see Lisboa making this interesting. Though I predict Salzburg to upset Bayern tomorrow.
    Like it or not, a Super league of some sort will happen in our lifetime.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From MH@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Tue Feb 15 21:35:50 2022
    On 2022-02-15 15:44, Real Mardin wrote:
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:


    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5

    (Mahrez 7)
    (Silva 17, 44 & 58)
    (Foden 32)


    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.

    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.

    These two teams play in the same "Champions League" but in reality are in a different division in terms of quality.

    There are far too many of these one sided results in the group stages and earlier knockout rounds of the Champions League. When I see a result like this I find myself wondering whether the vehement opposition to the European Super League was a missed opportunity to fix a problem that has gone on for too long. Teams like Manchester City need to be in a European tournament with teams of their own level and likewise Sporting need to be in a tournament where they can be competitive an not subjected to the kind of humiliating result they suffered tonight.

    I would not get quite so carried away just yet. Score was lop-sided but
    the bounces went City's way in that game. And they are probably the
    best side in the world right now.
    In spite of that they lost two games in the group stage - to Leipzig and
    PSG. (though it is true they already had the group won when they played Leipzig and lost - but that fact was thanks to Bruges who took points
    off PSG and Leipzig.)

    You are always going to get the odd game with a lop sided score every
    now and then (like some of Barca's losses in recent years).

    RM
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Real Mardin@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Feb 16 02:16:09 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 4:35:55 AM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2022-02-15 15:44, Real Mardin wrote:
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:


    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5

    (Mahrez 7)
    (Silva 17, 44 & 58)
    (Foden 32)


    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.

    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.

    These two teams play in the same "Champions League" but in reality are in a different division in terms of quality.

    There are far too many of these one sided results in the group stages and earlier knockout rounds of the Champions League. When I see a result like this I find myself wondering whether the vehement opposition to the European Super League was a missed opportunity to fix a problem that has gone on for too long. Teams like Manchester City need to be in a European tournament with teams of their own level and likewise Sporting need to be in a tournament where they can be competitive an not subjected to the kind of humiliating result they suffered tonight.
    I would not get quite so carried away just yet. Score was lop-sided but
    the bounces went City's way in that game. And they are probably the
    best side in the world right now.
    In spite of that they lost two games in the group stage - to Leipzig and PSG. (though it is true they already had the group won when they played Leipzig and lost - but that fact was thanks to Bruges who took points
    off PSG and Leipzig.)

    You are always going to get the odd game with a lop sided score every
    now and then (like some of Barca's losses in recent years).

    RM
    Champions League results from this season:
    Manchester City 6 - RB Leipzig 3
    PSG 4 - Club Brugge 1
    Porto 1 - Liverpool 5
    Borussia Dortmund 5 - Besiktas 0
    Shakhtar Donetsk 0 - Real Madrid 5
    Bayern Munich 5 - Benfica 2
    Benfica 0 - Bayern Munich 4
    Bayern Munich 5 - Dynamo Kyiv 0
    Chelsea 4 - Malmo 0
    It's not the odd result, it might be a reflection of the failings of the wider football World as much as the shortcomings of the Champions League itself but there is too much disparity in these results to be good for the game.
    It's not just the fact that the big teams from England / Germany / Spain win these games by such large margins, it's that we've come to expect them to. Something needs to change and I'm not entirely sure the forthcoming change to a "Swiss" system has all the answers.
    RM
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bruce Scott@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Feb 16 14:19:11 2022
    On 2022-02-15, Binder Dundat <dundat@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 5:44:36 p.m. UTC-5, Real Mardin wrote:
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:
    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5
    {...}
    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the
    Champions League has become. {...}

    Yeah, I am sorta watching this in the background as I make dinner.
    Already 3-0 in the first 30 minutes and you cant see Lisboa making
    this interesting.

    We've been down like that to both Bochum and Gladbach this season...

    Though I predict Salzburg to upset Bayern tomorrow.

    Maybe, likely not...

    Like it or not, a Super league of some sort will happen in our
    lifetime.

    Maybe, likely not... There's still enough powerful opposition.

    --
    ciao, Bruce
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Al Kamista@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Feb 16 08:18:47 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:16:11 AM UTC-5, Real Mardin wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 4:35:55 AM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2022-02-15 15:44, Real Mardin wrote:
    Champions League Round of 16 First Leg result:


    Sporting CP 0 - Manchester City 5

    (Mahrez 7)
    (Silva 17, 44 & 58)
    (Foden 32)


    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.

    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.

    These two teams play in the same "Champions League" but in reality are in a different division in terms of quality.

    There are far too many of these one sided results in the group stages and earlier knockout rounds of the Champions League. When I see a result like this I find myself wondering whether the vehement opposition to the European Super League was a missed opportunity to fix a problem that has gone on for too long. Teams like Manchester City need to be in a European tournament with teams of their own level and likewise Sporting need to be in a tournament where they can be competitive an not subjected to the kind of humiliating result they suffered tonight.
    I would not get quite so carried away just yet. Score was lop-sided but the bounces went City's way in that game. And they are probably the
    best side in the world right now.
    In spite of that they lost two games in the group stage - to Leipzig and PSG. (though it is true they already had the group won when they played Leipzig and lost - but that fact was thanks to Bruges who took points
    off PSG and Leipzig.)

    You are always going to get the odd game with a lop sided score every
    now and then (like some of Barca's losses in recent years).

    RM
    Champions League results from this season:

    Manchester City 6 - RB Leipzig 3

    PSG 4 - Club Brugge 1

    Porto 1 - Liverpool 5

    Borussia Dortmund 5 - Besiktas 0

    Shakhtar Donetsk 0 - Real Madrid 5

    Bayern Munich 5 - Benfica 2

    Benfica 0 - Bayern Munich 4

    Bayern Munich 5 - Dynamo Kyiv 0

    Chelsea 4 - Malmo 0


    It's not the odd result, it might be a reflection of the failings of the wider football World as much as the shortcomings of the Champions League itself but there is too much disparity in these results to be good for the game.
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.
    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top level. Only one of those clubs has won the CL.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Werner Pichler@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Thu Feb 17 01:42:29 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote: .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting, shrewd
    transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall within that
    broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    The divide is widening between the rich and the poor - clubs and leagues - , not between the 'legitimately' and 'illegimately' rich. The Glazers
    are being criticized for taking money *out* of the system. Newcastle fans are celebrating their new Saudi overlords. No fanbase minds being rich -
    as much as they might bemoan that 'the game's gone', the next moment they'll happily discuss exactly which players they need to buy for 50m+ to
    improve at left-back, and what an idiot their sporting director is for not doing so immediately

    Also, the main reason why a SuperLeague won't be forming is the one we've seen: it already exists in form of the EPL. The English teams
    have seen (or learned the hard way) they have nothing to gain from such an idea, and without them there's nothing 'Super' about such a
    league.


    Ciao,
    Werner
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Al Kamista@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Thu Feb 17 06:47:57 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting, shrewd
    transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall within that
    broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.
    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.
    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently) dependent on such funds.

    The divide is widening between the rich and the poor - clubs and leagues - , not between the 'legitimately' and 'illegimately' rich. The Glazers
    are being criticized for taking money *out* of the system. Newcastle fans are celebrating their new Saudi overlords. No fanbase minds being rich -
    as much as they might bemoan that 'the game's gone', the next moment they'll happily discuss exactly which players they need to buy for 50m+ to
    improve at left-back, and what an idiot their sporting director is for not doing so immediately
    The widening gap doesn't bother me so much as long as, again, it's through legitimate means. No club has a divine right to be a contender for the CL title, not even former giants like Benfica or Red Star Belgrade. That's too idealistic a view. There is no moral obligation towards sporting egalitarianism. All sports are defined by legends and greats and dynasties and haves and have nots.
    And there's a reason UEFA has always had multiple European competitions - so even the smaller clubs have a shot at a European title (but then again, you might have a Sheriff Tiraspol complain that they can never win the EL because they can't financially compete with a Sevilla).
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Werner Pichler@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Thu Feb 17 14:26:13 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting,
    shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall
    within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently) dependent
    on such funds.
    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea non-self-sufficient?
    Were Abramovich to sell tomorrow, surely he'd recoup most of his money? Chelsea's revenue and market value have burgeoned in step with the investments.
    The divide is widening between the rich and the poor - clubs and leagues - , not between the 'legitimately' and 'illegimately' rich. The Glazers
    are being criticized for taking money *out* of the system. Newcastle fans are celebrating their new Saudi overlords. No fanbase minds being rich -
    as much as they might bemoan that 'the game's gone', the next moment they'll happily discuss exactly which players they need to buy for 50m+ to
    improve at left-back, and what an idiot their sporting director is for not doing so immediately

    The widening gap doesn't bother me so much as long as, again, it's through legitimate means.
    Easy to say when just the league you play in gives you such an enormous headstart.
    (BTW something I found funny: Rapid ultr|as wished Bayern good luck on Twitter against despicable Salzburg, from proper club
    to proper club, garnished with hashtags like #ohneqatargehtsa (you don't need Qatar). Too bad they used a Bayern player
    photo with the Qatar Airways logo quite prominently visible on the sleeve.)
    No club has a divine right to be a contender for the CL title, not even former giants like Benfica or Red Star Belgrade. That's too idealistic a view. There is no moral obligation towards sporting egalitarianism. All
    sports are defined by legends and greats and dynasties and haves and have nots.
    And that's exactly what the Chelseas and PSGs of this world would argue.

    And there's a reason UEFA has always had multiple European competitions - so even the smaller clubs have a shot at a European title (but then again, you might have a Sheriff Tiraspol complain that they can never
    win the EL because they can't financially compete with a Sevilla).
    That's why they invented the Conference League, to share some of the breadcrumbs.
    Sheriff actually won today! But of course they're also quite the morally questionable club.
    Ciao,
    Werner
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Michael Falkner@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Thu Feb 17 16:21:24 2022
    On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 2:44:36 PM UTC-8, Real Mardin wrote:
    The sort of result which highlights what a broken tournament the Champions League has become.

    Sporting are not a second division side, they are champions of one of the more prominent footballing countries yet the scoreline made them look like a lower league side compared to Manchester City.

    And, justified or otherwise, this is why some of the people on some of these top-flight teams want rid of the other teams entirely.

    Mike
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Al Kamista@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Fri Feb 18 10:09:16 2022
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:26:17 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting,
    shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall
    within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently) dependent
    on such funds.
    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea non-self-sufficient?
    I don't have access to their balance sheets, nor knowledge of their financial intricacies, so let me frame this question another way.
    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their club to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone like a FSG). Do you think they would be able to continue their wanton spending in the transfer market and on wages, under this new kind of ownership?
    Were Abramovich to sell tomorrow, surely he'd recoup most of his money? Chelsea's revenue and market value have burgeoned in step with the investments.
    The divide is widening between the rich and the poor - clubs and leagues - , not between the 'legitimately' and 'illegimately' rich. The Glazers
    are being criticized for taking money *out* of the system. Newcastle fans are celebrating their new Saudi overlords. No fanbase minds being rich -
    as much as they might bemoan that 'the game's gone', the next moment they'll happily discuss exactly which players they need to buy for 50m+ to
    improve at left-back, and what an idiot their sporting director is for not doing so immediately

    The widening gap doesn't bother me so much as long as, again, it's through legitimate means.
    Easy to say when just the league you play in gives you such an enormous headstart.

    (BTW something I found funny: Rapid ultr|as wished Bayern good luck on Twitter against despicable Salzburg, from proper club
    to proper club, garnished with hashtags like #ohneqatargehtsa (you don't need Qatar). Too bad they used a Bayern player
    photo with the Qatar Airways logo quite prominently visible on the sleeve.)
    No club has a divine right to be a contender for the CL title, not even former giants like Benfica or Red Star Belgrade. That's too idealistic a view. There is no moral obligation towards sporting egalitarianism. All
    sports are defined by legends and greats and dynasties and haves and have nots.
    And that's exactly what the Chelseas and PSGs of this world would argue.
    Well, they are a different kind of example, as we have been discussing.
    But if a Liverpool or Bayern said that, they would be making a legitimate point.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Werner Pichler@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Sat Feb 26 12:26:42 2022
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:19 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:26:17 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting,
    shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall
    within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently)
    dependent on such funds.

    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea non-self-sufficient?

    I don't have access to their balance sheets, nor knowledge of their financial intricacies, so let me frame this question another way.

    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their club to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone like a FSG). Do you think they would be able to continue their wanton spending in
    the transfer market and on wages, under this new kind of ownership?

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?


    Ciao,
    Werner
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Blueshirt@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Sat Feb 26 22:36:41 2022
    Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:19 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com
    wrote:

    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their
    club to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone
    like a FSG). Do you think they would be able to continue their
    wanton spending in the transfer market and on wages, under this new
    kind of ownership?

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than
    expected?

    You might not all get the answer you want though! ;-)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Al Kamista@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Sat Feb 26 14:56:29 2022
    On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 3:26:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:19 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:26:17 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this case implies success through solid football operations (scouting,
    shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall
    within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U, Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and
    in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently)
    dependent on such funds.

    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea non-self-sufficient?

    I don't have access to their balance sheets, nor knowledge of their financial intricacies, so let me frame this question another way.

    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their club to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone like a FSG). Do you think they would be able to continue their wanton spending in
    the transfer market and on wages, under this new kind of ownership?
    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?

    Well, this article came out this morning before Roman stepped aside, but here's an alternate scenario.

    It could be a disaster for Chelsea he he was/is sanctioned.

    https://www.fotmob.com/embed/news/6909200/chelsea-could-go-out-of-business-if-roman-abramovich-faces
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Werner Pichler@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Mar 2 18:28:02 2022
    Werner Pichler <wpichler@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:19 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:26:17 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote: >>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote: >>>>> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or >>>>>> even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this >>>>>> case implies success through solid football operations (scouting, >>>>>> shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial >>>>>> revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your >>>>>> examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall >>>>>> within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U,
    Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and
    oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football
    sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been
    at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything
    you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and >>>>> in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a
    non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are
    doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use
    non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become
    self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently)
    dependent on such funds.

    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all
    get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when
    you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into
    their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea >>> non-self-sufficient?

    I don't have access to their balance sheets, nor knowledge of their
    financial intricacies, so let me frame this question another way.

    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their club
    to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone like a FSG).
    Do you think they would be able to continue their wanton spending in
    the transfer market and on wages, under this new kind of ownership?

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?


    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/03/02/statement-from-roman-abramovich

    Ciao,
    Werner
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Blueshirt@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Mar 2 22:13:41 2022
    Werner Pichler wrote:

    Werner Pichler <wpichler@gmail.com> wrote:

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?



    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/03/02/statement-from-roman-abramovich

    Great. We might just get an Arab consortium to take over who are even
    richer than Roman Abramovich... won't that please everybody?!!!

    Be careful what you wish for! ;-)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Binder Dundat@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Wed Mar 2 15:07:30 2022
    On Wednesday, March 2, 2022 at 5:13:43 p.m. UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:
    Werner Pichler wrote:
    Werner Pichler <wpic...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?



    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/03/02/statement-from-roman-abramovich Great. We might just get an Arab consortium to take over who are even
    richer than Roman Abramovich... won't that please everybody?!!!

    Be careful what you wish for! ;-)

    I hear it is a Tibetan consortium headed by the Dali Lama.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Werner Pichler@24:150/2 to rec.sport.soccer on Thu Mar 10 01:46:44 2022
    On Wednesday, March 2, 2022 at 7:28:04 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
    Werner Pichler <wpic...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:09:19 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 5:26:17 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote: >>> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 3:48:01 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 4:42:32 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:18:50 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
    .
    There are no failings in the system when a club achieves success (or >>>>>> even dominance) through operating within their means, which in this >>>>>> case implies success through solid football operations (scouting, >>>>>> shrewd transfer dealings, coaching, etc.) or maximizing commercial >>>>>> revenues through the power of their brand and marketing. From your >>>>>> examples above, Liverpool, Bayern, Real Madrid, and Dortmund all fall >>>>>> within that broad category, as well as other clubs like Man U,
    Barcelona, and Juventus.

    Where there's a legitimate gripe is against nation state and
    oligarch funded clubs where funds are sourced from non-football >>>>>> sources. Only Man City, PSG, and Chelsea fit into that category, at least at the top
    level.
    Only one of those clubs has won the CL.

    That distinction is becoming increasingly fickle. Chelsea have been >>>>> at it for a generation, is there really still much difference to the other
    foreign EPL owners? Salzburg/Red Bull have been doing everything
    you've enumerated (scouting, shrewd transfer dealings, coaching) and >>>>> in the process become a cash cow, but needed a strong monetary boost from a
    non-football source to get the thing going and have been
    vilified for it ever since the start. Although what Red Bull are
    doing is pretty much the only way a club from a smaller country can even think
    of achieving such a level as they have.

    I personally don't have that much of an issue with clubs that use
    non-football funding to get an initial foothold and then become
    self-sufficient. My biggest gripe is with clubs permanently (or frequently)
    dependent on such funds.

    No Premier League team is really 'dependent' on such funds. They all
    get participation money in excess of what you receive from UEFA when
    you win the Champions League.
    I struggle to think of the money Abramovich and others poured into
    their clubs as being so very different. In what way, exactly, are Chelsea
    non-self-sufficient?

    I don't have access to their balance sheets, nor knowledge of their
    financial intricacies, so let me frame this question another way.

    Let's assume that tomorrow Roman, Abu Dhabi, or Qatar sells their club
    to a more traditional sports investment firm (i.e. someone like a FSG). >> Do you think they would be able to continue their wanton spending in
    the transfer market and on wages, under this new kind of ownership?

    Who knows, we might get an answer to that question much sooner than expected?

    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/03/02/statement-from-roman-abramovich

    Too late

    https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1501850999086063618

    Ciao,
    Werner
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)