Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
Jovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
Jovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
So how much time has to elapse before we say that it's not a matter of settling in a new team and league, but that Sancho is actually a major bust?
On 2021-12-11 11:57, Al Kamista wrote:Good catch on Rudiger, he has been top class.
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:Add Dzeko to that list. And R|+diger has been strong (and still is).
Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
San|- and De Bruyne were good at City right away.
I think Chelsea fans will vehemently disagree with you here. He has scored 7 goals in 44 games as a forward. That's pretty abysmal. Speed alone isn't enough at this level, otherwise Usain Bolt would have gotten his dream move to Man Utd ;-)I would not call him a bust. His scoring rate is up, and his speed is
But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
an asset.
He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.OK. With a steady run in the team due to injuries elsewhere, I think he would start looking really good.Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
To his credit, Haller has been tearing it up in the CL. It would be interesting to see if he can deliver in the knockout rounds, now that the stakes and standards are much higher.This one was odd since it did not seem West Ham really had that manyJovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
options in the position, and Antonio was injured a lot.
Minamino came from Austria :-) And he has been pretty darn average. Thiago I agree, but he came from Bayern, which is of course a few levels above anyone else in that league.Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
So how much time has to elapse before we say that it's not a matter of settling in a new team and league, but that Sancho is actually a major bust?On the other hand, both Minamino and Thiago are finally starting to look more comfortable in the EPL, and are both assets this year. And Matip
seems to keep getting better.
Minamino came from Austria :-) And he has been pretty darn average.
Matip is solid, but again he came earlier (same time as Sane and KDB).
To draw a line in the sand, this trend has been most pronounced in the last 2-3 years.
Anomaly or indication of larger issue?What player did you think you were getting?
Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)Might still come good, but perhaps not with Chelsea.
Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)Cost a pittance in comparison to the others. The strange thing was Klopp sticking with
Jovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)How can you make this list without Joelinton?!
Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
Too much hype in a league where standards are rapidly falling? (Bayern notwithstanding)I think it's overgeneralizing. G|+ndo-fan and Mkhitaryan both left Dortmund for the Premier League
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:30:57 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:Klopp chased him for 2 years and he was played up as a box-to-box dynamo who would add vertical drive to our otherwise very blue collar midfield. He showed some of that, but he also loses the ball a lot and often seems out of synch with the pace of the game (that's when he's not injured, which is very often).
Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another: Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)What player did you think you were getting?
Agreed. His problems seem to be mostly mental. But as things stand right now, he is one terrible finisher.Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)Might still come good, but perhaps not with Chelsea.
And he paid the ultimate price for that.Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)Cost a pittance in comparison to the others. The strange thing was Klopp sticking with
Jovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
him for so long.
Didn't know he came from Germany.Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)How can you make this list without Joelinton?!
Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
Gundogan yes, but he came at the same time as Sane and KDB. A lot of quality came in that batch so I corrected the timeframe to the last 3 or so years.Too much hype in a league where standards are rapidly falling? (Bayern notwithstanding)I think it's overgeneralizing. G|+ndo-fan and Mkhitaryan both left Dortmund for the Premier League
in the same summer (and within your 5 years range), with very different results.
What about Pulisic? S||y|+nc|+? Even Aubameyang, Leno and Xhaka?Good calls on the first three. I would say the jury is still out on the last two.
OTOH, among this summer's batch, Leon Bailey might be on the verge of busting.A physical beast with bags of potential. Let's see if the mental side is there, which is one of the biggest differentiator for centerbacks.
How happy are you with Konat|-?
On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 2:35:34 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
Add Dzeko to that list. And R|+diger has been strong (and still is).
San|- and De Bruyne were good at City right away.
Good catch on Rudiger, he has been top class.
I would not call him [Werner] a bust. His scoring rate is up, and his speed is
an asset.
I think Chelsea fans will vehemently disagree with you here. He has scored 7 goals in 44 games as a forward. That's pretty abysmal. Speed alone isn't enough at this level, otherwise Usain Bolt would have gotten his dream move to Man Utd ;-)
OK. With a steady run in the team due to injuries elsewhere, I think he
would start looking really good.
He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.
I think most of us really *want* Werner to do well, but he doesn't look
up to it in the PL. They say while he's occupying defenders with his
pace it allows other players to find gaps and nick goals.
I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:I m trying to be nice, but your whole posting agenda has become tiresome and stupid, the whole WWEpl from players to coaches is made by foreign leagues, especially the Bundesliga lately and there are far more "flops" coming from other WWEpl teams, like Maguire or Oxlaide chamberlain or Grealish or....been a good year for Serie A rejects this season, mostly due to Salah and Jorghino.
I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
Solksjaer is a good example. One goal he scored in 1999 led to an incredible amount of goodwill with the fans, and was a large factor in him getting 3 years in a job he was largely unqualified for, and led Man U to being nowhere closer to success today than they were 3 years ago.
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 11:57:08 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
I think most of us really *want* Werner to do well, but he doesn't look
up to it in the PL. They say while he's occupying defenders with his
pace it allows other players to find gaps and nick goals.
I hate to say anything positive about a milivella FS pick, but it was exactly his "occupying defenders with his pace and allowing other players to find gaps and nick goals" that created Havertz's CL-winning goal.
On 13/12/2021 07:31, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 11:57:08 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
I think most of us really *want* Werner to do well, but he doesn't look
up to it in the PL. They say while he's occupying defenders with his
pace it allows other players to find gaps and nick goals.
I hate to say anything positive about a milivella FS pick, but it was
exactly his "occupying defenders with his pace and allowing other
players to find gaps and nick goals" that created Havertz's CL-winning
goal.
Yes, and Werner gets a lot of goodwill from Chelsea fans, maybe partly because of that, but he is generally well liked from what I've seen at
the matches I've been to where he's played. Fans sing his name and want
him to score... then a ball comes across the box and Werner puts it in
to Row Z!
He's a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd suggest
that is what he was bought for.
On 2021-12-13 14:54, Blueshirt wrote:
Werner is a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd suggest >> that is what he was bought for.
78 goals in 127 league games for Leipzig.-a 7 goals in 14 games in the CL for them.-a 7 in 15 games for Chelsea in the CL.-a 21 in 47 for Germany.
Those are not the statistics of someone who is an inherently bad finisher..... (though I guess we would have to know the number of
chances to say for sure).
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:On the other hand, we as football fans tend to (mis)judge footballers on their price tag instead of their actual accomplishments.
He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional
investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?
Solksjaer is a good example. One goal he scored in 1999 led to an incredible amount of goodwill with the fans, and was a large factor in him getting 3 years in a job he was largely unqualified for, and led Man U to being nowhere closer to success today than they were 3 years ago.--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
On 13/12/2021 23:32, MH wrote:
On 2021-12-13 14:54, Blueshirt wrote:
Werner is a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd
suggest that is what he was bought for.
78 goals in 127 league games for Leipzig.-a 7 goals in 14 games in the
CL for them.-a 7 in 15 games for Chelsea in the CL.-a 21 in 47 for Germany. >>
Those are not the statistics of someone who is an inherently bad
finisher..... (though I guess we would have to know the number of
chances to say for sure).
You missed the, 7 goals from 44 Premier League appearances stat. ;-)
On 2021-12-14 00:45, Blueshirt wrote:
On 13/12/2021 23:32, MH wrote:That had already been mentioned !
On 2021-12-13 14:54, Blueshirt wrote:
Werner is a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd
suggest that is what he was bought for.
78 goals in 127 league games for Leipzig.-a 7 goals in 14 games in the
CL for them.-a 7 in 15 games for Chelsea in the CL.-a 21 in 47 for
Germany.
Those are not the statistics of someone who is an inherently bad
finisher..... (though I guess we would have to know the number of
chances to say for sure).
You missed the, 7 goals from 44 Premier League appearances stat. ;-)
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not
even a regular starter)
On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 3:01:52 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:"To win them trophies" is a pretty broad and general statement. That final goal was Havertz's only goal in that entire CL tournament. Compare that to the previous winner Bayern, where Lewandowski scored 15 goals in the tournament, but none in the final. Who would you say did more to win their team the CL? Havertz's mandate was not to score the winning goal in the final (though it was a huge plus), but rather to make Chelsea a much more potent attacking team.
On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:
He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotionalOn the other hand, we as football fans tend to (mis)judge footballers on their price tag instead of their actual accomplishments.
investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?
What did Chelsea buy Havertz for? To win them trophies, not to sell him on for a profit. That's what he did, so how can he be a bust?
On 2021-12-11, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
He did after all score the golden goal in a CL Final. Has to countHaavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not
even a regular starter)
for something! (Lewa hasn't done that in two tries... a push off to
deny a fantastic volley, and a buncer onto the post)
On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:32:34 AM UTC-5, Bruce Scott wrote:
On 2021-12-11, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
That's why judging a player on one goal is a dodgy proposition. Mr. Messi hasn't been able to score in a major international final in 2 attempts either, just for context.He did after all score the golden goal in a CL Final. Has to countHaavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not
even a regular starter)
for something! (Lewa hasn't done that in two tries... a push off to
deny a fantastic volley, and a buncer onto the post)
That's why judging a player on one goal is a dodgy proposition. Mr.
Messi hasn't been able to score in a major international final in 2
attempts either, just for context.
And neither has Ronaldo. But lo and behold, Mario Gotze has!
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