Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

Group B:
Russia - Poland
Sweden - Czech Republic

Group C:
Italy - North Macedonia
Portugal - Turkey

Either Italy or Ronaldo won't be in Qatar. That Group A looks ridiculously easy.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
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On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:36:01 AM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

Winner of Wales-Austria plays the final at home.

Group B:
Russia - Poland
Sweden - Czech Republic

Winner of Russia-Poland plays at home.

Group C:
Italy - North Macedonia
Portugal - Turkey

Winner of Portugal-Turkey at home.

We'll have to get used to the idea of a second consecutive WC without Italy. --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2021-11-26 09:36, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

Not easy for Scotland at all, but it could have been a lot harder.
About equal odds for all 4, I would say.

Group B:
Russia - Poland
Sweden - Czech Republic

Sweden ought to have the edge here, though it could get interesting if
they are drawn away in the second game.

Group C:
Italy - North Macedonia
Portugal - Turkey

Either Italy or Ronaldo won't be in Qatar.

That match will generate some excitement.


That Group A looks ridiculously easy.

--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

We'll have to get used to the idea of a second consecutive WC without Italy.

(Italian?) thevorminatheria on Reddit:

https://old.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/r2r4rq/european_world_cup_qualifiers_playoff_round_draw/hm674lf/

We boycotted Russia and we will boycott Qatar because Italy is a
righteous nation. See you all somewhere in North America in 2026.

Or, if things get really bad after the 2022/2024 elections, maybe Italy
will boycott that one too.

-- HASM
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On Friday, 26 November 2021 at 17:36:01 UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

We have reached peak eurocrotto.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 4:36:01 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

Group B:
Russia - Poland
Sweden - Czech Republic

Group C:
Italy - North Macedonia
Portugal - Turkey

Either Italy or Ronaldo won't be in Qatar. That Group A looks ridiculously easy.

Well if you're a neutral (and presumably want to see the best teams at the World Cup), this is a fiasco.
If you're an Italy fan, your World Cup hopes are the same as a coin toss. Could be worse, but basically a fiasco.
If you're a Portugal fan, although you'll be reasonably confident of getting past Turkey at home, with Italy waiting round the corner, this is a fiasco.
And if you're a Turkey fan like me this is most definitely a fiasco.
In summary, what we're dealing with here is a fiasco.
I just hope UEFA (I understand it is them as opposed to FIFA who implemented this system) realise what a mess they've made of it and go back to a more traditional playoff system for the World Cup 2026 qualifiers.
Faults with this system:
1. Why a one leg playoff as opposed to two? It clearly creates an unfair advantage for the home team and is inconsistent with the rest of the qualifying format which is on a home and away basis. Please don't blame it on fixture congestion, it's not that difficult to find one evening to play the games? With this World Cup being in the Winter you could even play these qualifiers in the summer.
2. Why commit yourself to brackets where seeded teams can get one another, thus risking the elimination of teams who would add real value to the World Cup? Portugal - Italy could be a World Cup final or semi-final, now we're going to be denied watching one of them in Qatar.
3. The seeding system itself is suspect, being based only on results in this qualification cycle. I find it hard to believe that Scotland really justify being ranked ahead of Poland, Czech Republic and Turkey.
P.S. Did I mention this is a complete fiasco?
RM
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Il se trouve que HASM a formulo :

Or, if things get really bad after the 2022/2024 elections,

That already happened in 2020.

--
Ixion
Paris sort piteusement de la Coupe d'Europe.
Pas de doute, c'est bien un club Frantais
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On 2021-11-26 15:10, Real Mardin wrote:

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 4:36:01 PM UTC, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

Group B:
Russia - Poland
Sweden - Czech Republic

Group C:
Italy - North Macedonia
Portugal - Turkey

Either Italy or Ronaldo won't be in Qatar. That Group A looks ridiculously easy.

Well if you're a neutral (and presumably want to see the best teams at the World Cup), this is a fiasco.

If you're an Italy fan, your World Cup hopes are the same as a coin toss. Could be worse, but basically a fiasco.

If you're a Portugal fan, although you'll be reasonably confident of getting past Turkey at home, with Italy waiting round the corner, this is a fiasco.

And if you're a Turkey fan like me this is most definitely a fiasco.

In summary, what we're dealing with here is a fiasco.

I just hope UEFA (I understand it is them as opposed to FIFA who implemented this system) realise what a mess they've made of it and go back to a more traditional playoff system for the World Cup 2026 qualifiers.

Faults with this system:

1. Why a one leg playoff as opposed to two? It clearly creates an unfair advantage for the home team and is inconsistent with the rest of the qualifying format which is on a home and away basis. Please don't blame it on fixture congestion, it's not that difficult to find one evening to play the games? With this World Cup being in the Winter you could even play these qualifiers in the summer.

2. Why commit yourself to brackets where seeded teams can get one another, thus risking the elimination of teams who would add real value to the World Cup? Portugal - Italy could be a World Cup final or semi-final, now we're going to be denied watching one of them in Qatar.

3. The seeding system itself is suspect, being based only on results in this qualification cycle. I find it hard to believe that Scotland really justify being ranked ahead of Poland, Czech Republic and Turkey.

P.S. Did I mention this is a complete fiasco?

It is not a COMPLETE fiasco, since Italy and Portugal find themselves in
this position due to their inability to finish first in groups won by
Serbia (not good enough to get into the Euros where there were 24
teams), and Switzerland. Why did they not get in ? Portugal lost at
home to Serbia in the key game and dropped points in Ireland. Italy
could not beat Switzerland over two games, and dropped points to
Bulgaria at home and Ireland away.

I hope Turkey beat them both.

I am not a big fan of playoffs for qualification and think they should
be kept to a minimum, but having it as one game instead of two legs does
not bother me that much. Neutral territory for the decider would be
fairer, though giving the six seeded teams the home game seems OK.

Anyway, this is a Cup competition. Not many object to single game
knockouts deciding the main tournament, so I am not sure there is justification in getting too upset about the same mechanism being used
to settle who qualifies from the dregs of the qualifying process.

RM

--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
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MH <MHnospam@ucalgary.ca> writes:

Portugal lost at home to Serbia in the key game and dropped points in Ireland.

The draw with Ireland didn't really matter. Had Portugal won in Ireland
they would still be sent to the playoffs with a loss to Serbia.

-- HASM
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On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 5:07:37 PM UTC-5, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

On Friday, 26 November 2021 at 17:36:01 UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

We have reached peak eurocrotto.

aaach, whow come ye saying that, looks th' toughest group tae me and it looks a bonnie group, tay the last mach me remembah watchin vs Austria was 4-0 aye it was meerly a freindly tho

AUSTRIA - SCOTLAND 4-0 (1-0)
Referee: Jean Lutz (Switzerland)
Crowd: 65.000, Praterstadion, Vienna
Goals: 1-0 Hanappi (42), 2-0 Hanappi (56), 3-0 Wagner (69) penalty, 4-0 Wagner (88)
AUSTRIA: (Coach: Walter Nausch)
Walter Zeman - Rudolf Rockl, Ernst Happel - Gerhard Hanappi, Ernst Ocwirk, Leopold Gernhardt [c] - Ernst Melchior, Hans Riegler, Theodor Wagner, Erich Probst,
Alfred Korner.

SCOTLAND:
James Clews Cowan (20/Morton) -
George Lewis Young [c] (28/Rangers)
Samuel Richmond Cox (14/Rangers) -
James Scoular (3/Portsmouth)
William Alexander Woodburn (20/Rangers)
William Yates Redpath (7/Motherwell) -
William Tweedie Orr Waddell (13/Rangers)
James Mason (7/Third Lanark)
George Hamilton (3/Aberdeen)
William Steel (25/Dundee)
Lawrance Reilly (13/Hibernian)

Notes: William Steel was sent off after 82 minutes.
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On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 12:17:59 AM UTC, MH wrote:

It is not a COMPLETE fiasco, since Italy and Portugal find themselves in this position due to their inability to finish first in groups won by
Serbia (not good enough to get into the Euros where there were 24
teams), and Switzerland. Why did they not get in ? Portugal lost at
home to Serbia in the key game and dropped points in Ireland. Italy
could not beat Switzerland over two games, and dropped points to
Bulgaria at home and Ireland away.

I hope Turkey beat them both.

I agree in so far as I think Italy and Portugal finishing second and being drawn together has perhaps amplified the negative effects of this system, but then what good is being seeded if your reward is to be paired with another seed in the final? I just think bracketing the seeds off this way was unnecessary and was always going to cause us to lose better quality teams, be they Italy and Portugal or someone else.

I am not a big fan of playoffs for qualification and think they should
be kept to a minimum, but having it as one game instead of two legs does
not bother me that much. Neutral territory for the decider would be
fairer, though giving the six seeded teams the home game seems OK.

Anyway, this is a Cup competition. Not many object to single game
knockouts deciding the main tournament, so I am not sure there is justification in getting too upset about the same mechanism being used
to settle who qualifies from the dregs of the qualifying process.

Single leg is the norm for the main tournament, as far as I can remember two legged playoffs have been the norm during qualification and as the qualification groups are based on a home and away system seem a natural and fair extension of that concept.
Anyway, good luck to everyone still in with a chance, and if it doesn't work out for some us I guess there's always 2026.
RM
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On 2021-11-27 06:41, Real Mardin wrote:

On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 12:17:59 AM UTC, MH wrote:

It is not a COMPLETE fiasco, since Italy and Portugal find themselves in
this position due to their inability to finish first in groups won by
Serbia (not good enough to get into the Euros where there were 24
teams), and Switzerland. Why did they not get in ? Portugal lost at
home to Serbia in the key game and dropped points in Ireland. Italy
could not beat Switzerland over two games, and dropped points to
Bulgaria at home and Ireland away.

I hope Turkey beat them both.

I agree in so far as I think Italy and Portugal finishing second and being drawn together has perhaps amplified the negative effects of this system, but then what good is being seeded if your reward is to be paired with another seed in the final?

They were seeded for the group phase, which is why they did not face any particularly challenging opposition. Why should they derive a double
advantage from that seeding, instead of taking the luck of the draw like
any other team that failed in its basic mission of winning their group?


I just think bracketing the seeds off this way was unnecessary and was always going to cause us to lose better quality teams, be they Italy and Portugal or someone else.


13 qualifiers. 55 UEFA members. They could have had 13 groups of
either 4 or 5 teams I guess. I think that is a bit too small for a
group, though.
6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of matches. Though
other confederations manage that (Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the
other rounds)

But UEFA has consistently argued against large groups.

And UEFA seems keener on single leg things in recent years (CL during
covid), playoffs for Nation's league and qualification for Euros.

I am not a big fan of playoffs for qualification and think they should
be kept to a minimum, but having it as one game instead of two legs does
not bother me that much. Neutral territory for the decider would be
fairer, though giving the six seeded teams the home game seems OK.

Anyway, this is a Cup competition. Not many object to single game
knockouts deciding the main tournament, so I am not sure there is
justification in getting too upset about the same mechanism being used
to settle who qualifies from the dregs of the qualifying process.

Single leg is the norm for the main tournament, as far as I can remember two legged playoffs have been the norm during qualification

Certainly recently that has been true. There have been single game
playoffs to resolve ties in the past, but those were on neutral ground.
And there has been drawing of lots, as when Turkey qualified at
Spain's expense for 1954 (two legs, but not goal difference !)

and as the qualification groups are based on a home and away system seem
a natural and fair extension of that concept.

Anyway, good luck to everyone still in with a chance, and if it doesn't work out for some us I guess there's always 2026.

RM

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Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of matches. Though
other confederations manage that (Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the >other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10 advance. In UEFA
2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning loads and loads more of
meaningless games.


--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08
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On 2021-11-28 00:08, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of matches. Though
other confederations manage that (Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the
other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10 advance. In UEFA 2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning loads and loads more of
meaningless games.

definitely true. If FIFA goes ahead with the crazy idea of WCs every
two years (can't see that happening), maybe UEFA would have to tie all qualification to a revamped Nations' league, along with scrapping the
Euros (again, can't see that happening).
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

On 2021-11-28 00:08, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of matches. Though
other confederations manage that (Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the >>> other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10 advance. In UEFA >> 2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning loads and loads more of
meaningless games.

definitely true. If FIFA goes ahead with the crazy idea of WCs every
two years (can't see that happening), maybe UEFA would have to tie all >qualification to a revamped Nations' league, along with scrapping the
Euros (again, can't see that happening).

But, if the UEFA Qs were to be tiered, then it could work.

TIER 1
3 groups of 10
Topp 4.33 to the WC.
#7-8 to playoff against #3-4 in Tier 2
#9-10 relegated

TIER 2
3 groups of 9/10
Topp 2 promoted
#3-4 to playoff against #7-8 in Tier 1


--
Manchester United FC - CHAMPIONS
Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08
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anders t avait ocrit le 28/11/2021 :

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

On 2021-11-28 00:08, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of
matches. Though other confederations manage that
(Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10
advance. In UEFA 2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning
loads and loads more of meaningless games.

definitely true. If FIFA goes ahead with the crazy idea of
WCs every two years (can't see that happening), maybe UEFA
would have to tie all qualification to a revamped Nations'
league, along with scrapping the Euros (again, can't see
that happening).

But, if the UEFA Qs were to be tiered, then it could work.

TIER 1
3 groups of 10
Topp 4.33 to the WC.
#7-8 to playoff against #3-4 in Tier 2
#9-10 relegated

TIER 2
3 groups of 9/10
Topp 2 promoted
#3-4 to playoff against #7-8 in Tier 1

That means that 25 teams have NO chance to go to World Cup.
Definitively a bad idea.


--
Ixion
Paris sort piteusement de la Coupe d'Europe.
Pas de doute, c'est bien un club Frantais
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Quoting ixion martin - GdBx in rec.sport.soccer:

anders t avait ocrit le 28/11/2021 :

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

On 2021-11-28 00:08, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of
matches. Though other confederations manage that
(Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10
advance. In UEFA 2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning
loads and loads more of meaningless games.

definitely true. If FIFA goes ahead with the crazy idea of
WCs every two years (can't see that happening), maybe UEFA
would have to tie all qualification to a revamped Nations'
league, along with scrapping the Euros (again, can't see
that happening).

But, if the UEFA Qs were to be tiered, then it could work.

TIER 1
3 groups of 10
Topp 4.33 to the WC.
#7-8 to playoff against #3-4 in Tier 2
#9-10 relegated

TIER 2
3 groups of 9/10
Topp 2 promoted
#3-4 to playoff against #7-8 in Tier 1

That means that 25 teams have NO chance to go to World Cup.
Definitively a bad idea.

25 UEFA teams HAVE no chance to get to the WC in a given cycle. They would instead now have the carrot to actually WIN something and advance.

There would be more real competition for more teams.


--
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Latest: England '13 (20th) Europa '17, UEFA '08, World '08
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anders t a formul|- ce dimanche :

25 UEFA teams HAVE no chance to get to the WC in a given
cycle. They would instead now have the carrot to actually WIN
something and advance.

Definitively NO !

All the team have their chance to qualify at the beginning of
the qualifiers, even San Marino, Guam or Monserrat. The chances
are theorical, yes, but they exist and have to exist.

Ask for a pre-qualifiying round if you want but do not forbid
to teams to have a tiny or theoric chance to qualify because of
previous results.

--
Ixion
JrCOai un ami de 71 ans, une jambe de bois, un oeil en verre,
un crochet |a la place de la main droite, qui r|-ve de jouer
|a nouveau au foot. Il va postuler aux GdBx, il a sa chance.
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On 2021-11-28 12:16, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

On 2021-11-28 00:08, anders t wrote:

Quoting MH in rec.sport.soccer:

6 groups of 9 (one of ten) would have been a lot of matches. Though
other confederations manage that (Conmebol, Concafaf when you add in the >>>> other rounds)

There's a difference, though: In Conmebol 4.5 teams of 10 advance. In UEFA >>> 2.17 teams of 9/10 would advance. Meaning loads and loads more of
meaningless games.

definitely true. If FIFA goes ahead with the crazy idea of WCs every
two years (can't see that happening), maybe UEFA would have to tie all
qualification to a revamped Nations' league, along with scrapping the
Euros (again, can't see that happening).

But, if the UEFA Qs were to be tiered, then it could work.

TIER 1
3 groups of 10
Topp 4.33 to the WC.
#7-8 to playoff against #3-4 in Tier 2
#9-10 relegated

TIER 2
3 groups of 9/10
Topp 2 promoted
#3-4 to playoff against #7-8 in Tier 1

I have always thought that something akin to what happens in World
Hockey championships might work for UEFA qualifying.

Have 6 large groups (seeded of course), but break them down into
subgroups as follows

A1 - 4 teams
A2 - 5 teams

B1 - 4 teams
B2 - 5 teams

C1 - -- one group would have to have 10 teams

and so on everyone plays everyone within the subgroup plays every one
else twice (6 games or 8 games).
The top 2 in each subgroup move on to another around against the top two
from the other subgroup in the same group, retaining their results
against the other team from their group. 6 more games here with the
top 2 from each group qualifying. These teams would qualify having
played 10 or 12 games, which is not unreasonable.

That leaves one place from a repechage : 3rd and 4th placed teams in
each subgroup (so 24 in all) play off against each other in 6 groups of
4. The top one in each group, and four best second placed teams play
off in knockout against the 6 third placed teams from the main path to
get to the final qualifier. Too many knockout games but there must be a
way around that.
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On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:07:37 PM UTC+1, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

On Friday, 26 November 2021 at 17:36:01 UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:

Group A:
Scotland - Ukraine
Wales - Austria

We have reached peak eurocrotto.

I don't see the problem.


Ciao,
Werner
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