• So, to summarise ...

    From Sir Tim@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 20:24:25 2021
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The
    authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13,
    which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour
    but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it
    would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made
    *after* the race.

    --
    Sir Tim

    rCLGrowing old is mandatory; growing up is optionalrCY
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From News@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 15:44:33 2021
    On 12/14/2021 3:24 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made *after* the race.



    1./ +1
    2./ the 'sway' is solved by...
    3./ +1
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    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 20:46:11 2021
    Sir Tim wrote:

    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.


    I haven't been able to grasp how that assertion makes any sense. Just
    as with 15.3 they seem to be attributing a meaning that was never
    intended and makes little sense.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that
    RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I do believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in
    the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would
    have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside
    F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a
    race. The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every
    detail of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests
    should be made after the race.

    There is no way to unfuck the situation. There is no remedy that will
    not make the sport look even more ridiculous. The WDC would be even
    more tainted for Mercedes than it is for RBR. They cannot go back and
    celebrate the win in AD. Yet how can they let this set a precedent?

    If they let Masi go, which I think should happen, that will be seen as admitting he made the wrong calls and unduly influenced the results. So
    even that is not straight forward, though they could wait a couple of
    months to announce him in another role.

    So the real question is how will they sweep it under the carpet.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Build
    Texasgate
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From alister@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 20:48:29 2021
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:24:25 +0000, Sir Tim wrote:

    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13,
    which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour
    but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it
    would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made
    *after* the race.

    As someone who is totaly biased & wanted to see Ham clinch an 8th wdc.
    but I would say I agree 100%

    Changing the result on appeal would do more harm than good to the sport
    & would be unjust on Max who has done nothing wrong.

    The FIA now need to issue a statement something along the lines of
    "Whilst the actions of Masi were in accordance with the rules * made in
    good faith they were with the benefit of hindsight not the best & it is
    with regret that we accept Masi's resignation.





    --
    Thus spake the master programmer:
    "When a program is being tested, it is too late to make design changes."
    -- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Geoff May@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 20:49:18 2021
    On 14/12/2021 20:24, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I don't think Mercedes should stop any legal effort but they need to
    make sure that they make it look like they are ensuring we never get a
    repeat.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    I feel they should have a fixed group of stewards who have an
    enforceable rule book. Safety should remain with Masi but he should have
    no control over breaches of the regulations. Only the stewards decide
    that and their penalties need to be consistent across the year.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made *after* the race.

    This has already been decided by the FIA ... apparently: https://www.pitpass.com/71614/FIA-to-outlaw-in-race-lobbying-from-teams

    Cheers

    Geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 10:09:50 2021
    On 15/12/2021 9:24 am, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made *after* the race.


    Agree in all but '1' - if the appeal was simply to acknowledge that an erroneous decision had been made.

    I do not think HAM would actually accept the 'crown' even if the result
    was overturned. He's bigger than that - unlike the WDC champ who was
    crowing with delight with winning under the bizarre and patently unfair circumstances.

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 10:11:18 2021
    On 15/12/2021 10:09 am, geoff wrote:
    On 15/12/2021 9:24 am, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >> the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the
    last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have
    been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail
    of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be
    made *after* the race.


    Agree in all but '1' - if the appeal was simply to acknowledge that an erroneous decision had been made.

    I do not think HAM would actually accept the 'crown' even if the result
    was overturned. He's bigger than that - unlike the WDC champ who was
    crowing with delight with winning under the bizarre and patently unfair circumstances.

    geoff

    If it were me, I would find my victory more than a little hollow.

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Darryl Johnson@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 16:16:08 2021
    On 2021-12-14 3:49 PM, Geoff May wrote:
    On 14/12/2021 20:24, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >> the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the
    last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have
    been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I don't think Mercedes should stop any legal effort but they need to
    make sure that they make it look like they are ensuring we never get a repeat.

    I really don't know what to make of this situation. If Mercedes persists
    in their appeal it doesn't look good with regard to their
    "sportmanship". On the other hand, Masi's actions were so questionable
    that *something* needs to be done about it. If Mercedes does not follow through with an appeal, it may just lead to further questionable
    decisions down the road, so to speak. A crime unpunished, sort of thing.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    I feel they should have a fixed group of stewards who have an
    enforceable rule book. Safety should remain with Masi but he should have
    no control over breaches of the regulations. Only the stewards decide
    that and their penalties need to be consistent across the year.

    Further, it should be that the Race Director is limited to *only* safety issues. However, that still leaves room for decisions about red
    flag/safety car/VSC open to the RD's interpretation and I see no way
    around that. Perhaps one official calling for the safety car and another deciding when to end it.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail
    of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be
    made *after* the race.

    This has already been decided by the FIA ... apparently: https://www.pitpass.com/71614/FIA-to-outlaw-in-race-lobbying-from-teams

    Cheers

    Geoff


    I would also add a 4th new rule to the mix: in the event of a safety
    car, the cars in pitlane are to be under park ferme conditions and no
    work AT ALL can be done. If there is a safety issue where a part wants changing, it can be done after the cars are released from the pitlane
    and green flag racing has resumed. In other words, more or less the same
    time penalty would be incurred as if the safety issue was discovered
    under green flag conditions.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 21:41:30 2021
    geoff wrote:

    On 15/12/2021 10:09 am, geoff wrote:
    On 15/12/2021 9:24 am, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion
    that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the
    Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention
    of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use
    his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy
    champion. Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner
    admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I do believe that foremost in his mind was the fact
    that Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish,
    and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind
    the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a
    change of champion after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn
    the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is
    they just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine
    blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow
    but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and
    most egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him
    (including the one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap
    incident). He seems to be too easily swayed by representations
    from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect
    of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a
    race. The stewards have video which enables them to see almost
    every detail of the race and their decisions should be final.
    Protests should be made after the race.


    Agree in all but '1' - if the appeal was simply to acknowledge that
    an erroneous decision had been made.

    I do not think HAM would actually accept the 'crown' even if the
    result was overturned. He's bigger than that - unlike the WDC
    champ who was crowing with delight with winning under the bizarre
    and patently unfair circumstances.

    geoff

    If it were me, I would find my victory more than a little hollow.


    In his defence and as Trev claimed above I think most people accept
    that either driver would have made a worthy champion. It was the RD
    that handed them the trophy but you can't lay the blame on Max for
    accepting it.

    As for it feeling hollow, I don't think so, I'm sure he will find a way
    of justifying it, whether Silverstone or some other DNF or decision
    that he felt did not go his way. I don't think he will be resented by
    anyone that matters for taking the title.

    Max's career and popularity is ascending rapidly; the muck doesn't
    stick. Diversification is more important to Lewis, with 7 WDC's he
    doesn't need a tarnished one; his reputation on and off track is more
    important than that. If you have seen the amount of respect he has had
    for the way he dealt with everything on Sunday... it's enough to make
    Baker choke on his prejudice.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Build
    Texasgate
    Enjoy!
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    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 11:19:08 2021
    On 15/12/2021 10:41 am, Bigbird wrote:
    geoff wrote:

    On 15/12/2021 10:09 am, geoff wrote:
    On 15/12/2021 9:24 am, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion
    that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the
    Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention
    of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was
    justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use
    his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy
    champion. Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner
    admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were
    tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I do believe that foremost in his mind was the fact
    that Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish,
    and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind
    the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a
    change of champion after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn
    the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is
    they just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine
    blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow
    but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and
    most egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him
    (including the one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap
    incident). He seems to be too easily swayed by representations
    from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect
    of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a
    race. The stewards have video which enables them to see almost
    every detail of the race and their decisions should be final.
    Protests should be made after the race.


    Agree in all but '1' - if the appeal was simply to acknowledge that
    an erroneous decision had been made.

    I do not think HAM would actually accept the 'crown' even if the
    result was overturned. He's bigger than that - unlike the WDC
    champ who was crowing with delight with winning under the bizarre
    and patently unfair circumstances.

    geoff

    If it were me, I would find my victory more than a little hollow.


    In his defence and as Trev claimed above I think most people accept
    that either driver would have made a worthy champion. It was the RD
    that handed them the trophy but you can't lay the blame on Max for
    accepting it.

    As for it feeling hollow, I don't think so, I'm sure he will find a way
    of justifying it, whether Silverstone or some other DNF or decision
    that he felt did not go his way. I don't think he will be resented by
    anyone that matters for taking the title.

    Max's career and popularity is ascending rapidly; the muck doesn't
    stick. Diversification is more important to Lewis, with 7 WDC's he
    doesn't need a tarnished one; his reputation on and off track is more important than that. If you have seen the amount of respect he has had
    for the way he dealt with everything on Sunday... it's enough to make
    Baker choke on his prejudice.


    Apart from driving ability, VERs popularity must be significantly due to nationalism, and/or admiration of bullishness (to put it mildly), and/or 'racial-purity' in comparison to chief opponent.

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 11:21:15 2021
    On 15/12/2021 10:16 am, Darryl Johnson wrote:
    On 2021-12-14 3:49 PM, Geoff May wrote:
    On 14/12/2021 20:24, Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that
    RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing >>> Max the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in
    the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would
    have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I don't think Mercedes should stop any legal effort but they need to
    make sure that they make it look like they are ensuring we never get a
    repeat.

    I really don't know what to make of this situation. If Mercedes persists
    in their appeal it doesn't look good with regard to their
    "sportmanship". On the other hand, Masi's actions were so questionable
    that *something* needs to be done about it. If Mercedes does not follow through with an appeal, it may just lead to further questionable
    decisions down the road, so to speak. A crime unpunished, sort of thing.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    I feel they should have a fixed group of stewards who have an
    enforceable rule book. Safety should remain with Masi but he should
    have no control over breaches of the regulations. Only the stewards
    decide that and their penalties need to be consistent across the year.

    Further, it should be that the Race Director is limited to *only* safety issues. However, that still leaves room for decisions about red
    flag/safety car/VSC open to the RD's interpretation and I see no way
    around that. Perhaps one official calling for the safety car and another deciding when to end it.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a
    race. The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every
    detail of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests
    should be made *after* the race.

    This has already been decided by the FIA ... apparently:
    https://www.pitpass.com/71614/FIA-to-outlaw-in-race-lobbying-from-teams

    Cheers

    Geoff


    I would also add a 4th new rule to the mix: in the event of a safety
    car, the cars in pitlane are to be under park ferme conditions and no
    work AT ALL can be done. If there is a safety issue where a part wants changing, it can be done after the cars are released from the pitlane
    and green flag racing has resumed. In other words, more or less the same time penalty would be incurred as if the safety issue was discovered
    under green flag conditions.

    Agreed. Else as currently it is an injustice to cars that may happen to
    simply be on the wrong part or the track when SC called.

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From =?UTF-8?B?w4FuZ2VsIEdS?=@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 23:40:52 2021
    On 2021-12-14 22:16, Darryl Johnson wrote:

    I would also add a 4th new rule to the mix: in the event of a safety
    car, the cars in pitlane are to be under park ferme conditions and no
    work AT ALL can be done. If there is a safety issue where a part wants changing, it can be done after the cars are released from the pitlane
    and green flag racing has resumed. In other words, more or less the same time penalty would be incurred as if the safety issue was discovered
    under green flag conditions.


    What about if they may enter but they have to wait in the pitlane to
    enter at the end of the pack?

    --
    |Ungel GR
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 15:03:41 2021
    On 2021-12-14 12:24 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    And what if that is their interpretation? I'll be bet that Charlie
    Whiting used his discretion on numerous occasions.


    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max the championship on a plate.

    Ummmmm... ...no.

    Hamilton need to defend better to get through the only three legitimate overtaking opportunities on the last lap, and the WDC would have been his.


    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    The former is almost certainly true. The latter... ...I'm much more dubious.


    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I certainly agree with this.


    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.


    No. Absolutely not. Masi is the proxy/patsy for the FIA/Liberty. Nothing
    he did in that race was without their concurrence.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made *after* the race.

    I think that the teams should be able to protest by some digital format
    that only allows them to state the rule they are protesting and the cars involved and the time of the alleged infraction. That would get passed
    on to the stewards for their consideration. But no pleading, whining, cajoling, etc. on the radio.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Dec 14 15:04:38 2021
    On 2021-12-14 12:48 p.m., alister wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:24:25 +0000, Sir Tim wrote:

    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, >> Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The
    authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13,
    which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >> the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour
    but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened
    whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both
    organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last few laps it
    would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say,
    rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has
    certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made
    *after* the race.

    As someone who is totaly biased & wanted to see Ham clinch an 8th wdc.
    but I would say I agree 100%

    Changing the result on appeal would do more harm than good to the sport
    & would be unjust on Max who has done nothing wrong.

    The FIA now need to issue a statement something along the lines of
    "Whilst the actions of Masi were in accordance with the rules * made in
    good faith they were with the benefit of hindsight not the best & it is
    with regret that we accept Masi's resignation.

    Which would be complete and utter bullshit and just making him the
    scapegoat.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 12:54:14 2021
    On 15/12/2021 12:03 pm, Alan wrote:
    On 2021-12-14 12:24 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    And what if that is their interpretation? I'll be bet that Charlie
    Whiting used his discretion on numerous occasions.

    Within the understood scope of the written rules, yes.


    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >> the championship on a plate.

    Ummmmm... ...no.

    Hamilton need to defend better to get through the only three legitimate overtaking opportunities on the last lap, and the WDC would have been his.

    Simply impossible, unless VER wiped out.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    The former is almost certainly true. The latter... ...I'm much more
    dubious.


    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the
    last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have
    been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I certainly agree with this.


    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.


    No. Absolutely not. Masi is the proxy/patsy for the FIA/Liberty. Nothing
    he did in that race was without their concurrence.

    Possibly true in one respect or both - but of course you *know* that
    somehow.


    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail
    of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be
    made *after* the race.

    I think that the teams should be able to protest by some digital format
    that only allows them to state the rule they are protesting and the cars involved and the time of the alleged infraction. That would get passed
    on to the stewards for their consideration. But no pleading, whining, cajoling, etc. on the radio.

    Reasonable.

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Martin Harran@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 10:43:49 2021
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:24:25 +0000, Sir Tim <bentley@brooklands.com>
    wrote:

    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that >SundayAs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race Director, >Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule 48.12. The >authorities claim that this contravention was justified by rule 48.13, >which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB >needed a omiracleo) but MasiAs actions were tantamount to handing Max
    the championship on a plate.

    I donAt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour
    but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that happened >whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also that both >organizations would like to see a change of champion after so many years
    of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the >result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of sportsmanship
    and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just have to suck
    it up. After all, had HamiltonAs engine blown in the last few laps it
    would have been as great a blow but they would have been able to say, >othatAs motor racingo.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to be
    too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he has >certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail of
    the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be made >*after* the race.


    I agree with all you say there.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From alister@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 14:57:46 2021
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:04:38 -0800, Alan wrote:

    On 2021-12-14 12:48 p.m., alister wrote:
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:24:25 +0000, Sir Tim wrote:

    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >>> the championship on a plate.

    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's
    favour but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that
    Liberty and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one
    that happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car.
    Also that both organizations would like to see a change of champion
    after so many years of Hamilton dominance.

    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they
    just have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the >>> last few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have
    been able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and
    he has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside
    F1.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail
    of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be
    made *after* the race.

    As someone who is totaly biased & wanted to see Ham clinch an 8th wdc.
    but I would say I agree 100%

    Changing the result on appeal would do more harm than good to the sport
    & would be unjust on Max who has done nothing wrong.

    The FIA now need to issue a statement something along the lines of
    "Whilst the actions of Masi were in accordance with the rules * made in
    good faith they were with the benefit of hindsight not the best & it is
    with regret that we accept Masi's resignation.

    Which would be complete and utter bullshit and just making him the
    scapegoat.

    Bullshit yes, but it would save face & as it was Masi that made the call
    (& as you have already admitted the rules were not fully followed) he is
    the correct person to take the fall.



    --
    Windows 95 is not a virus. Viruses actually do something.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From alister@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 15 15:02:39 2021
    On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:03:41 -0800, Alan wrote:

    On 2021-12-14 12:24 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
    Most of us here, with one notable exception, are of the opinion that
    SundayrCOs race was rendered a fiasco by the actions of the Race
    Director, Michael Masi, whose ruling was in contravention of rule
    48.12. The authorities claim that this contravention was justified by
    rule 48.13, which, in effect, allows the RD to use his discretion.

    And what if that is their interpretation? I'll be bet that Charlie
    Whiting used his discretion on numerous occasions.

    I'm sure he did, but it seems he had better judgement as I cannot remeber
    him being at the centre of any major controversy although this is purley subjective opinion.

    I think we also agree that both Hamilton and Verstappen have been
    driving superbly and either one would have been a worthy champion.
    Hamilton looked certain to win (even Christian Horner admitted that RB
    needed a rCLmiraclerCY) but MasirCOs actions were tantamount to handing Max >> the championship on a plate.

    Ummmmm... ...no.

    Hamilton need to defend better to get through the only three legitimate overtaking opportunities on the last lap, and the WDC would have been
    his.


    I donrCOt believe that Masi was consciously biased in Verstappen's favour
    but I *do* believe that foremost in his mind was the fact that Liberty
    and the FIA desperately wanted an exciting finish, and one that
    happened whilst the cars were racing, not behind the safety car. Also
    that both organizations would like to see a change of champion after so
    many years of Hamilton dominance.

    The former is almost certainly true. The latter... ...I'm much more
    dubious.


    So what should happen now:

    1.Verstappen is WDC. Mercedes should drop any attempt to overturn the
    result. To continue to dispute it would be seen as lack of
    sportsmanship and would only do them harm. Tough though it is they just
    have to suck it up. After all, had HamiltonrCOs engine blown in the last
    few laps it would have been as great a blow but they would have been
    able to say, rCLthatrCOs motor racingrCY.

    I certainly agree with this.


    2.Masi should resign or be fired. This is only the latest and most
    egregious in a series of questionable decisions by him (including the
    one not to penalise Hamilton for the first lap incident). He seems to
    be too easily swayed by representations from the team principals and he
    has certainly lost the respect of many fans, if not those inside F1.


    No. Absolutely not. Masi is the proxy/patsy for the FIA/Liberty. Nothing
    he did in that race was without their concurrence.

    3.The teams should not have access to the Race Director during a race.
    The stewards have video which enables them to see almost every detail
    of the race and their decisions should be final. Protests should be
    made *after* the race.

    I think that the teams should be able to protest by some digital format
    that only allows them to state the rule they are protesting and the cars involved and the time of the alleged infraction. That would get passed
    on to the stewards for their consideration. But no pleading, whining, cajoling, etc. on the radio.





    --
    You will be attacked by a beast who has the body of a wolf, the tail of
    a lion, and the face of Donald Duck.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)