• Mercedes sponsor causing ructions

    From Mr Gobrien@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Dec 3 07:41:32 2021

    Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire and government minister Michael Gove have criticised Formula 1 team Mercedes for signing a deal with a firm linked to the tower. The F1 team signed a deal with Kingspan, which made some of the insulation used in the cladding.
    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part of some team names)
    More - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59514976
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  • From Heron@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Dec 3 12:09:57 2021
    On 12/3/2021 9:41 AM, Mr Gobrien wrote:

    Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire and government minister Michael Gove have criticised Formula 1 team Mercedes for signing a deal with a firm linked to the tower. The F1 team signed a deal with Kingspan, which made some of the insulation used in the cladding.

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part of some team names)

    More - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59514976

    Mercedes apologise to Grenfell group for rCLhurtrCY caused by Kingspan deal https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/03/mercedes-apologise-to-grenfell-group-for-hurt-caused-by-kingspan-deal
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  • From Alan@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Dec 3 10:32:31 2021
    On 2021-12-03 10:09 a.m., Heron wrote:
    On 12/3/2021 9:41 AM, Mr Gobrien wrote:

    Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire and government minister Michael
    Gove have criticised Formula 1 team Mercedes for signing a deal with a
    firm linked to the tower. The F1 team signed a deal with Kingspan,
    which made some of the insulation used in the cladding.

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part
    of some team names)

    More - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59514976

    Mercedes apologise to Grenfell group for rCLhurtrCY caused by Kingspan deal https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/03/mercedes-apologise-to-grenfell-group-for-hurt-caused-by-kingspan-deal


    I hope that Mercedes did their due diligence as Wolff claimed.

    If they did, I'm kind of with them on this.

    Kingspan is not evil just because there was a product of theirs that was
    used in the Grenfell tower.

    The first phase of the inquiry puts the blame for the fire on the
    (highly flammable) polyethylene cladding and not on the insulation most
    of which was not the Kingspan product anyway.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Sir Tim@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Dec 3 19:02:21 2021
    Mr Gobrien <mr_gobrien@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part of some team names)

    And IrCOm old enough to remember when there was no advertising *at all* on
    the cars. It was a bit of a culture shock when Team Lotus first appeared
    with Players Gold Leaf adverts on the cars (1968 was it?).


    --
    Sir Tim
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  • From Mark Jackson@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Dec 3 14:24:19 2021
    On 12/3/2021 2:02 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
    Mr Gobrien <mr_gobrien@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part of some team names)

    And IrCOm old enough to remember when there was no advertising *at all* on the cars. It was a bit of a culture shock when Team Lotus first appeared
    with Players Gold Leaf adverts on the cars (1968 was it?).

    This from the long-retired rasf1[m] FAQ:

    Q: Which team first had a sponsor, the first race with sponsor,
    and the sponsor's name?
    A: At the 1968 Spanish GP Lotus appeared in the red and gold
    livery of Gold Leaf Cigarettes. If privateers are considered
    then one must credit John Love and Sam Tingle, whose "Team
    Gunston" Brabham-Repco and LDS-Repco ran in the colors of that
    cigarette brand at the season-opening South African event.

    --
    Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
    I love being told I'm growing up wrong by people
    I don't want to turn out like. - Caulfield (Jef Mallett)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Heron@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 8 07:32:17 2021
    On 12/3/2021 12:09 PM, Heron wrote:
    On 12/3/2021 9:41 AM, Mr Gobrien wrote:

    Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire and government minister Michael
    Gove have criticised Formula 1 team Mercedes for signing a deal with a
    firm linked to the tower. The F1 team signed a deal with Kingspan,
    which made some of the insulation used in the cladding.

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part
    of some team names)

    More - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59514976

    Mercedes apologise to Grenfell group for rCLhurtrCY caused by Kingspan deal https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/03/mercedes-apologise-to-grenfell-group-for-hurt-caused-by-kingspan-deal

    Mercedes and Kingspan end sponsorship deal following Grenfell controversy https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/08/mercedes-and-kingspan-end-sponsorship-deal-following-grenfell-controversy/
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From D Munz@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 8 05:58:50 2021
    On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 7:32:15 AM UTC-6, Heron wrote:

    Mercedes and Kingspan end sponsorship deal following Grenfell controversy


    Wow, that was fast.

    FWIW
    DLM
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  • From Dan the Man@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Dec 8 07:01:23 2021
    On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 8:32:15 AM UTC-5, Heron wrote:
    On 12/3/2021 12:09 PM, Heron wrote:
    On 12/3/2021 9:41 AM, Mr Gobrien wrote:

    Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire and government minister Michael
    Gove have criticised Formula 1 team Mercedes for signing a deal with a
    firm linked to the tower. The F1 team signed a deal with Kingspan,
    which made some of the insulation used in the cladding.

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official part
    of some team names)

    More - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59514976

    Mercedes apologise to Grenfell group for rCLhurtrCY caused by Kingspan deal
    https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/03/mercedes-apologise-to-grenfell-group-for-hurt-caused-by-kingspan-deal
    Mercedes and Kingspan end sponsorship deal following Grenfell controversy https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/08/mercedes-and-kingspan-end-sponsorship-deal-following-grenfell-controversy/
    It's not 100% clear from the article if Merc found an escape clause in the contract or if both sides agreed to just drop the deal.
    But they might as well have gotten it out of the way.
    Dan
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  • From Phil Carmody@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sat Dec 11 14:49:06 2021
    Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
    On 12/3/2021 2:02 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
    Mr Gobrien <mr_gobrien@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official
    part of some team names)

    And IrCOm old enough to remember when there was no advertising *at all* on >> the cars. It was a bit of a culture shock when Team Lotus first appeared
    with Players Gold Leaf adverts on the cars (1968 was it?).

    This from the long-retired rasf1[m] FAQ:

    Q: Which team first had a sponsor, the first race with sponsor,
    and the sponsor's name?
    A: At the 1968 Spanish GP Lotus appeared in the red and gold
    livery of Gold Leaf Cigarettes. If privateers are considered
    then one must credit John Love and Sam Tingle, whose "Team
    Gunston" Brabham-Repco and LDS-Repco ran in the colors of that
    cigarette brand at the season-opening South African event.

    There are some transitional cases before that as the presence of
    these businesses' logos in 1967 was a commercial quid pro quo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Lotus_49-1.JPG

    I'm not in the office presently, but there I have a set of 'antique'
    glasses from some time in the 70s, and I think the Lotus has Gold Leaf
    rather than JPS, so that might help date them more precisely. Lipton,
    Yardley, and STP might also be on other glasses, that might be enough datapoints to pinpoint them to an exact year. I have meant to do the
    research historically, but never got around to it, the only time I'm
    in the office I'm firefighting an urgent problem, and I leave right
    after.

    Phil
    --
    We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
    -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Mark Jackson@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sat Dec 11 10:15:13 2021
    On 12/11/2021 7:49 AM, Phil Carmody wrote:
    Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
    On 12/3/2021 2:02 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
    Mr Gobrien <mr_gobrien@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official
    part of some team names)

    And IrCOm old enough to remember when there was no advertising *at all* on >>> the cars. It was a bit of a culture shock when Team Lotus first appeared >>> with Players Gold Leaf adverts on the cars (1968 was it?).

    This from the long-retired rasf1[m] FAQ:

    Q: Which team first had a sponsor, the first race with sponsor,
    and the sponsor's name?
    A: At the 1968 Spanish GP Lotus appeared in the red and gold
    livery of Gold Leaf Cigarettes. If privateers are considered
    then one must credit John Love and Sam Tingle, whose "Team
    Gunston" Brabham-Repco and LDS-Repco ran in the colors of that
    cigarette brand at the season-opening South African event.

    There are some transitional cases before that as the presence of
    these businesses' logos in 1967 was a commercial quid pro quo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Lotus_49-1.JPG

    Those stickers advertised products actually used on the cars in
    question, reflecting a long-standing practice of teams receiving in-kind
    or cash support from component manufacturers. As it happens the fuel
    and tire companies stepped back after 1967, after which the FIA first permitted unrestricted sponsorship. See

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_sponsorship_liveries

    I'm not in the office presently, but there I have a set of 'antique'
    glasses from some time in the 70s, and I think the Lotus has Gold Leaf
    rather than JPS, so that might help date them more precisely.

    See the FAQ entry quoted above. According to Forix "Gold Leaf Team
    Lotus" was Chapman's official entry for the first time in the 1968
    Spanish GP.

    --
    Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
    I love being told I'm growing up wrong by people
    I don't want to turn out like. - Caulfield (Jef Mallett)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Phil Carmody@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Dec 12 17:29:53 2021
    Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
    On 12/11/2021 7:49 AM, Phil Carmody wrote:
    Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
    On 12/3/2021 2:02 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
    Mr Gobrien <mr_gobrien@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    (I'm old enough to remember tobacco companies being an official
    part of some team names)

    And IrCOm old enough to remember when there was no advertising *at all* on >>>> the cars. It was a bit of a culture shock when Team Lotus first appeared >>>> with Players Gold Leaf adverts on the cars (1968 was it?).

    This from the long-retired rasf1[m] FAQ:

    Q: Which team first had a sponsor, the first race with sponsor,
    and the sponsor's name?
    A: At the 1968 Spanish GP Lotus appeared in the red and gold
    livery of Gold Leaf Cigarettes. If privateers are considered
    then one must credit John Love and Sam Tingle, whose "Team
    Gunston" Brabham-Repco and LDS-Repco ran in the colors of that
    cigarette brand at the season-opening South African event.

    There are some transitional cases before that as the presence of
    these businesses' logos in 1967 was a commercial quid pro quo:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Lotus_49-1.JPG

    Those stickers advertised products actually used on the cars in
    question, reflecting a long-standing practice of teams receiving
    in-kind or cash support from component manufacturers. As it happens
    the fuel and tire companies stepped back after 1967, after which the
    FIA first permitted unrestricted sponsorship. See

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_sponsorship_liveries

    Yes, that's why I called them "transitional cases". What do you think
    the precise difference between "sponsorship" and "support" is, in
    particular given that some definitions of "sponsor" include the word
    "support"?

    I'm not in the office presently, but there I have a set of 'antique'
    glasses from some time in the 70s, and I think the Lotus has Gold Leaf
    rather than JPS, so that might help date them more precisely.

    See the FAQ entry quoted above. According to Forix "Gold Leaf Team
    Lotus" was Chapman's official entry for the first time in the 1968
    Spanish GP.

    I've seen the FAQ entry quoted above, I see no new bits of information
    in your contribution here.

    Phil
    --
    We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
    -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Mark Jackson@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Dec 12 11:22:31 2021
    On 12/12/2021 10:29 AM, Phil Carmody wrote:
    Mark Jackson <mjackson@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:

    There are some transitional cases before that as the presence of
    these businesses' logos in 1967 was a commercial quid pro quo:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Lotus_49-1.JPG
    Those stickers advertised products actually used on the cars in
    question, reflecting a long-standing practice of teams receiving
    in-kind or cash support from component manufacturers. As it happens
    the fuel and tire companies stepped back after 1967, after which the
    FIA first permitted unrestricted sponsorship. See

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_sponsorship_liveries

    Yes, that's why I called them "transitional cases". What do you think
    the precise difference between "sponsorship" and "support" is, in
    particular given that some definitions of "sponsor" include the word "support"?

    Sorry, I misunderstood what you were looking for. Not definitive, but
    after trawling through several years of gallery photos on Forix the
    first sponsor logo I find is a Shell sticker on Bruce's McLaren M5A-BRM (Walker/Durlacher Racing) at the 1967 Italian GP. There's an Elf
    sticker on Beltoise's Matra by the US GP; may have been others as they
    are both relatively subtle.

    I don't see anything on Lotus vehicles during 1967, certainly nothing
    like your link above - which matches the stickers at the season-opening
    South African GP of 1968 (penultimate appearance of the 49, and the last before the full Gold Leaf livery).

    --
    Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
    I love being told I'm growing up wrong by people
    I don't want to turn out like. - Caulfield (Jef Mallett)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)