On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen
very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden
and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
his case.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen
very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden
and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support
his case.
On 2021-11-15 12:55 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:I don't disagree with what you've written. Just thinking about how a driver might argue. Max could argue the grip he "felt", even if you and I could agree that that side of the track should be less dusty than he might sugggest.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>> and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked tooNope; and on two counts.
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
1. Cars regularly ran that line when attempting to overtake. It's pretty much the standard way of attempting to get by, so the line wouldn't have been dusty.
2. When you open the steering to regain traction, you do so only slightly.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.Enforcing the rules of the game is never wrong.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how otherYup.
things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support his case.
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen
very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden
and significant deviation.
That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while cornering.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen
very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden
and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support
his case.
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>> and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked tooI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other
things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support his case.And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
geoff
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that >>>>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an >>>>>> INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>>>> and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front >>> traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other >>> things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the
indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support >>> his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at the apex at all,
but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he was just never going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
On 15/11/2021 7:59 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen
very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that
would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an
INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden
and significant deviation.
That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
cornering.
And as a result of that deliberate action he would never have made the corner (without running off-track) without losing his rear-end.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that >>>>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an >>>>>> INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>>>> and significant deviation.
cornering.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front >>> traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given how other >>> things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the
indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to support >>> his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at the apex at all,
but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he was just never going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
On 2021-11-16 6:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while >>>>> cornering.
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>>>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>>>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that >>>>>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an >>>>>>> INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>>>>> and significant deviation.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing
front
traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other
things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the
indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to
support
his case.
geoff
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all,
but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he was just never
going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under
braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
Well, I'll be damned.
I've watched that a bunch of times now, and...
...Verstappen doesn't open his hands to make the car go straighter for
that moment you can see in the overhead shot.
What it looks like to me is that he chooses what he thinks will be a trajectory that will leave Hamilton with no room at the exit of the
corner (which would still have been an infraction, because Hamilton had clearly earned himself the rights to room on the track)...
...but then his car picks up some understeer--probably caused by the turbulence from Hamilton's car, and his chosen line becomes one that
puts him right off track as well.
So to me, this is just like Hamilton's attempted pass on Verstappen at Copse:
Verstappen(Hamilton) picked a line and a speed that he(he) felt he(he) needed to take to use the inside line to stay ahead(pass) Hamilton(Verstappen), but the car understeered wider than that line. But he(he) could have backed off a little to have left Hamilton(Verstappen)
to room to which Hamilton(Verstappen) was entitled to and perhaps the manoeuvre wouldn't have succeed, but that's racing.
So same penalty for both in my book. Maybe a little more serious for Hamilton because of the much higher speed at Copse than at turn 4 at Interlagos ("Descida do Lago").
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd brakedI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch
too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid
losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making
the corner and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defendingAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence
to support his case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he
did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
On 17/11/2021 3:12 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while >>>>> cornering.
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a
penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't get to >>>>>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>>>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that >>>>>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an >>>>>>> INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a sudden >>>>>> and significant deviation.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing
front
traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other
things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the
indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to
support
his case.
geoff
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all,
but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he was just never
going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under
braking).
I think at all times he could have made the corner cleanly, if he wanted
to. He chose that action.
On 17/11/2021 9:21 am, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 6:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch at >>>> HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the past
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel while >>>>>> cornering.
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received a >>>>>>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I don't >>>>>>>> get to
see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that Verstappen >>>>>>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the actual data that >>>>>>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing you'd only discover in an >>>>>>>> INVESTIGATION!
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
sudden
and significant deviation.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked too
late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing
front
traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making the corner >>>> and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other
things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the
indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence to
support
his case.
geoff
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all,
but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he was just never
going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under
braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
Well, I'll be damned.
I've watched that a bunch of times now, and...
...Verstappen doesn't open his hands to make the car go straighter for
that moment you can see in the overhead shot.
What it looks like to me is that he chooses what he thinks will be a
trajectory that will leave Hamilton with no room at the exit of the
corner (which would still have been an infraction, because Hamilton
had clearly earned himself the rights to room on the track)...
...but then his car picks up some understeer--probably caused by the
turbulence from Hamilton's car, and his chosen line becomes one that
puts him right off track as well.
So to me, this is just like Hamilton's attempted pass on Verstappen at
Copse:
Verstappen(Hamilton) picked a line and a speed that he(he) felt he(he)
needed to take to use the inside line to stay ahead(pass)
Hamilton(Verstappen), but the car understeered wider than that line.
But he(he) could have backed off a little to have left
Hamilton(Verstappen) to room to which Hamilton(Verstappen) was
entitled to and perhaps the manoeuvre wouldn't have succeed, but
that's racing.
So same penalty for both in my book. Maybe a little more serious for
Hamilton because of the much higher speed at Copse than at turn 4 at
Interlagos ("Descida do Lago").
I disagree in that Copse was an error of judgement, and this was
deliberate.
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitchI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked
too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid
losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making
the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending
the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence
to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he
did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to steer in. It is
not obvious that he couldn't.
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:What benefit would he have got from weaving ?
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitchI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked
too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid
losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making
the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending
the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence
to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he
did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on the
track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory
which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for
him to be able to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off (and
thus help get back some gap)?
On 17/11/2021 1:30 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:What benefit would he have got from weaving ?
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitchI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked
too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid
losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making
the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given
how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending
the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence
to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at
the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he
did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on the
track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory
which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for
him to be able to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off (and
thus help get back some gap)?
On 2021-11-16 5:45 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 1:30 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:What benefit would he have got from weaving ?
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch >>>>>> at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the >>>>>> past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at makingI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact. >>>>>>>
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked
too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid
losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given >>>>>>> how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending
the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence >>>>>>> to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at >>>>> the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he >>>>> was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he
did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory
which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for
him to be able to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off (and
thus help get back some gap)?
Keeping Hamilton behind him.
On 17/11/2021 2:47 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 5:45 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 1:30 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:What benefit would he have got from weaving ?
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:don't get to >>>> see the data...
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received >>>>>>> a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the >>>>>>> actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind), twitch >>>>>>> at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in the >>>>>>> past when contact has been made during genuine attempts at making >>>>>>> the corner and passing.I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid contact. >>>>>>>>That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel >>>>>>> while >> cornering.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It was a >>>>>>> sudden >>> and significant deviation.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved. >>>>>>>>>>
geoff
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd braked >>>>>>>> too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid >>>>>>>> losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though, given >>>>>>>> how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending >>>>>>>> the indefensible because he had to with very little real evidence >>>>>>>> to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never aimed at >>>>>> the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he >>>>>> was just never going to make the corner having braked as late as he >>>>>> did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong?-a And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the opportunity was
clearly there for him to be able to stay on the track with only
Hamilton going off (and thus help get back some gap)?
Keeping Hamilton behind him.
Yes, illegally.
Nope
You're quite wrong.
I agree.
And before you say it,
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have
received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the >>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thingMy initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It
was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering
wheel
And the weaving black and white warning was well
deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoidgeoff
contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'dI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind),
braked too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up
to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton.
Maybe.
twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between
them in the past when contact has been made during genuine
attempts at making the corner and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though,
given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defendingAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
the indefensible because he had to with very little real
evidence to support his case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never
aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to
drift out - he was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory
which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for
him to be able to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off (and
thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to steer in.
It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay on track
until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s,
Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly early, but
that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and then without him
release any steering wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and
he actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before he gets
to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of steering wheel.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have
received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was that
actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel. It
was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering
wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind),I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid
And the weaving black and white warning was well
deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd
braked too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up
to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton.
Maybe.
twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between
them in the past when contact has been made during genuine
attempts at making the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate though,
given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending
the indefensible because he had to with very little real
evidence to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never
aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to
drift out - he was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory
which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for
him to be able to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off (and
thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side laps
video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to steer in.
It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay on track
until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s,
Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly early, but
that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and then without him
release any steering wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and
he actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before he gets
to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I >>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have received
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the >>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing >>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was
that
sudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel.
It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the
steering wheel
And the weaving black and white warning was well
deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoidgeoff
contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'dI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind),
braked too late on the dusty side and needed to
straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding
into Hamilton. Maybe.
twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents
between them in the past when contact has been made during
genuine attempts at making the corner and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got
past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate
though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team bossAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
defending the indefensible because he had to with very
little real evidence to support his case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never
aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to
drift out - he was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the opportunity was
clearly there for him to be able to stay on the track with only
Hamilton going off (and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side
laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to
steer in. It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay on
track until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s,
Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly early, but
that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and then without him
release any steering wheel angle at all the car just washes wide,
and he actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before
he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of steering
wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:The video is online now at
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alan wrote:a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should have
received
don't get to >>>> see the data...
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but the >>>>>>> actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of thing
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot was
that
you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering wheel.
It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the
steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be kind),I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to avoid
And the weaving black and white warning was well
deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because he'd
braked too late on the dusty side and needed to
straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding
into Hamilton. Maybe.
twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents
between them in the past when contact has been made during
genuine attempts at making the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton got
past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate
though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss
defending the indefensible because he had to with very
little real evidence to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he never
aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open the wheel to
drift out - he was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him room on
the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the opportunity was
clearly there for him to be able to stay on the track with only
Hamilton going off (and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side
laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to
steer in. It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay on
track until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s,
Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly early, but
that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and then without him
release any steering wheel angle at all the car just washes wide,
and he actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before
he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of steering
wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your previous premature
and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not attempt to turn
in sufficiently in time to make the corner without punting Lewis off
the track.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent, or lack of.
I do not see any purpose for your response.
I've been in a racing car
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:43:07 PM UTC-7, Bigbird wrote:
I do not see any purpose for your response.
How about trolling?
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but Max is overtaking
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because they're F1 cars.
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a >> trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those
trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because
they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but Max is overtaking
Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn? Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory might have been
good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alana >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I >>>>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...
wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should
have received
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort ofVerstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, butMy initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot
was that
thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering
wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the
steering wheel
And the weaving black and white warning was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react togeoff
avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering becauseI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to be
he'd braked too late on the dusty side and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and
sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different
incidents between them in the past when contact has
been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton
got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate
though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss defending the indefensible because he had to with veryAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
little real evidence to support his case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he
never aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open
the wheel to drift out - he was just never going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching
hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him
room on the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or
go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the opportunity was clearly there for him to be able to stay on the track with
only Hamilton going off (and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side
laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to
steer in. It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay
on track until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s, Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly
early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and
then without him release any steering wheel angle at all the
car just washes wide, and he actually starts adding steering
wheel angle. Long before he gets to the track edge, he's got
nearly 90 degrees of steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your previous
premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not attempt to
turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner without punting
Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been illegal even
if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent, or lack
of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would stay on the
track.
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly
see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different
because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but
Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter
apex, so he's going faster that Lewis has judged is "correct" for
that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are
you factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory might
have been good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve
the turn (perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on pretty
close to the same line.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both on the
tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps done
very well, but you can basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the same speed (about
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but
Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter
apex, so he's going faster that Lewis has judged is "correct" for
that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are
you factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory might
have been good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve
the turn (perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining cause
of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
At about 22s in the video, when the black strip of tarmac appears just above Max's rear wing (demonstrating reasonable sync between the videos) MaxThe second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps done
very well, but you can basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT time, perfectly...
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
Alan wrote:the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort of
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alana >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn 4--I >>>>>>>>> don't get to >>>> see the data...
wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen should
have received
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead shot
was that
thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
The video is online now atsudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering
wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the
steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to beI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to
And the weaving black and white warning was well
deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering because
he'd braked too late on the dusty side and needed to
straighten up to avoid losing front traction and
sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different
incidents between them in the past when contact has
been made during genuine attempts at making the corner
and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as Hamilton
got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to investigate
though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team boss
defending the indefensible because he had to with very
little real evidence to support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he
never aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he open
the wheel to drift out - he was just never going to make
the corner having braked as late as he did (catching
hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him
room on the track and Hamilton having to either fall back or
go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the opportunity was
clearly there for him to be able to stay on the track with
only Hamilton going off (and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by side
laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he chose not to
steer in. It is not obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him stay
on track until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about 7.5s,
Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the (admittedly
early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre does) apex, and
then without him release any steering wheel angle at all the
car just washes wide, and he actually starts adding steering
wheel angle. Long before he gets to the track edge, he's got
nearly 90 degrees of steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your previous
premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not attempt to
turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner without punting
Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been illegal even
if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent, or lack
of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would stay on the
track.
Why do you feel the need to make such obvious guesses or repeat them?
Do you not realise you put people off reading any further.
You clearly have nothing to add to what we can see on the video but
your guesses which appear rather uneducated.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly
see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those
trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different
because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but
Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter
apex, so he's going faster that Lewis has judged is "correct" for
that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are
you factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory might
have been good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve
the turn (perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the
understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on pretty
close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining cause
of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both on the
tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps done
very well, but you can basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT time, perfectly...
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a >> trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those
trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because
they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but Max is overtaking
Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn? Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory might have been
good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
On 19/11/2021 10:12 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a >>> trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those
trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because >>> they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but Max is overtaking
Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn?-a Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation?-a The trajectory might have been
good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
Here's Jolyon's take on it (he says Max should have been penalised): <https://youtu.be/mZquZxUHtC0>
What's interesting is this is an edited down version of the same video I watched on the official F1
site a couple of days ago that I can no longer find. The bit that's been edited out Jolyon said "It
was the right call for the sake of spectacle but the wrong call for the sake of sport" (or very
similar words). Seems he's been reeled in a bit.
On 19/11/2021 10:12 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a >>> trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read those
trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because >>> they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver); but Max is overtaking
Hamilton off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn?-a Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation?-a The trajectory might have been
good but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
Here's Jolyon's take on it (he says Max should have been penalised): <https://youtu.be/mZquZxUHtC0>
What's interesting is this is an edited down version of the same video I watched on the official F1
site a couple of days ago that I can no longer find. The bit that's been edited out Jolyon said "It
was the right call for the sake of spectacle but the wrong call for the sake of sport" (or very
similar words). Seems he's been reeled in a bit.
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can
clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read
those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver);
but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal line, into a
tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis has judged is
"correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to
make the turn? Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation?
The trajectory might have been good but the pace might have
been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what you're
alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on
pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be able
to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right when
Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the same
speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining
cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both on
the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps done
very well, but you can basically see that at the same point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely
the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
On 2021-11-19 4:48 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
4--I >>>>>>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff
wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alana >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn
wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen
should have received
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort ofVerstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, butMy initial reaction to seeing the overhead
shot was that
thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering
wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the steering wheel
And the weaving black and white warning was
well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
I was just impressed Hamilton managed to react togeoff
avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steeringI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (to
because he'd braked too late on the dusty side
and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
be kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike
similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine
attempts at making the corner and passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as
Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to
investigate though, given how other things do get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a teamAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
boss defending the indefensible because he had to
with very little real evidence to support his
case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he
never aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he
open the wheel to drift out - he was just never going
to make the corner having braked as late as he did
(catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did
he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him
room on the track and Hamilton having to either fall back
or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a trajectory which takes them both off, when the
opportunity was clearly there for him to be able to stay
on the track with only Hamilton going off (and thus help
get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by
side laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he
chose not to steer in. It is not obvious that he
couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him
stay on track until he picked up a large dose of
understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about
7.5s, Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the
(admittedly early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre
does) apex, and then without him release any steering
wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and he
actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before
he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of
steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your previous
premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not attempt
to turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner without
punting Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been illegal
even if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent, or
lack of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would stay on
the track.
Why do you feel the need to make such obvious guesses or repeat
them?
I'm rebutting the nonsense that Verstappen chose a line that was
"never" going to stay on the track.
Do you not realise you put people off reading any further.
You clearly have nothing to add to what we can see on the video but
your guesses which appear rather uneducated.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:48 a.m., Bigbird wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
Alan wrote:4--I >>>>>>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff
wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC, Alana >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn
wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen
should have received
the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the sort ofVerstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel, but
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the overhead
shot was that
thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
The video is online now atsudden >>> and significant deviation.
A 'little' more than just opened tyhe steering
wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you open the
steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive (toI was just impressed Hamilton managed to react to
And the weaving black and white warning was
well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering
because he'd braked too late on the dusty side
and needed to straighten up to avoid losing front
traction and sliding into Hamilton. Maybe.
be kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike
similar-but-different incidents between them in the
past when contact has been made during genuine
attempts at making the corner and passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as
Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to
investigate though, given how other things do get
investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a team
boss defending the indefensible because he had to
with very little real evidence to support his
case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is that he
never aimed at the apex at all, but neither did he
open the wheel to drift out - he was just never going
to make the corner having braked as late as he did
(catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in, did
he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to leave him
room on the track and Hamilton having to either fall back
or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to choosing a
trajectory which takes them both off, when the
opportunity was clearly there for him to be able to stay
on the track with only Hamilton going off (and thus help
get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from side by
side laps video/telemetry but it looks to me that he
chose not to steer in. It is not obvious that he
couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let him
stay on track until he picked up a large dose of
understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about
7.5s, Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the
(admittedly early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre
does) apex, and then without him release any steering
wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and he
actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long before
he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90 degrees of
steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your previous
premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not attempt
to turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner without
punting Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been illegal
even if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent, or
lack of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would stay on
the track.
Why do you feel the need to make such obvious guesses or repeat
them?
I'm rebutting the nonsense that Verstappen chose a line that was
"never" going to stay on the track.
That's a falsehood. You are not rebutting anyone.
Do you not realise you put people off reading any further.
You clearly have nothing to add to what we can see on the video but
your guesses which appear rather uneducated.
The FACT is that Verstappen chose to drive in such a way that he would
never stay on track. He created the understeer.
Did you even look at the videos you were touting earlier?
Take another look.
Less nonsense more consideration.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can
clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to read
those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically
different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing driver);
but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal line, into a
tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis has judged is
"correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to
make the turn? Are you factoring in speed to that evaluation?
The trajectory might have been good but the pace might have
been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what you're
alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on
pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be able
to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right when
Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the same
speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining
cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both on
the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps done
very well, but you can basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT time,
perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the actual
telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you were banging on
about previously.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely
the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking yet again
you totally ignore the throttle.
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
You only ever look at part of the picture which is why you never have
the whole picture.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make but you won't get
anywhere while you keep claiming your poor guesses as facts when they
clearly are not.
"Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the
track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to
read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not
magically different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing
driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal
line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on
a trajectory to make the turn? Are you factoring in speed
to that evaluation? The trajectory might have been good
but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn
(perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the
understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on
pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be
able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the same
speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining
cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both
on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps
done very well, but you can basically see that at the same
point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the
same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT
time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you were banging on
about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I don't
know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely
the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking yet
again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right off the
throttle until the point where you'd expect him to get back on it.
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle at the
point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle
induced.
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that
while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
You only ever look at part of the picture which is why you never
have the whole picture.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make but you won't get
anywhere while you keep claiming your poor guesses as facts when
they clearly are not.
On 2021-11-20 2:50 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:48 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
4--I >>>>>>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff
wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC,a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen
should have received
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
but >>>>the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is theVerstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel,My initial reaction to seeing the
overhead shot was that
sort of >>>>thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION!
sudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe
steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you
open the steering wheel
And the weaving black and white warning
was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
I was just impressed Hamilton managed togeoff
react to avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steeringI think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctive
because he'd braked too late on the dusty side
and needed to straighten up to avoid losing
front traction and sliding into Hamilton.
Maybe.
(to be kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike similar-but-different incidents between them in
the past when contact has been made during
genuine attempts at making the corner and
passing.
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as
Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to
investigate though, given how other things do
get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like aAnd apparently didn't need to have made it ...
team boss defending the indefensible because
he had to with very little real evidence to
support his case.
geoffThe video is online now at
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is
that he never aimed at the apex at all, but
neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions
right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in,
did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to
leave him room on the track and Hamilton having to
either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to
choosing a trajectory which takes them both off, when
the opportunity was clearly there for him to be able
to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off
(and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from
side by side laps video/telemetry but it looks to
me that he chose not to steer in. It is not
obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let
him stay on track until he picked up a large dose of understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about
7.5s, Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the
(admittedly early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre
does) apex, and then without him release any steering
wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and he
actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long
before he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90
degrees of steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your
previous premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not
attempt to turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner
without punting Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been
illegal even if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent,
or lack of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would
stay on the track.
Why do you feel the need to make such obvious guesses or repeat
them?
I'm rebutting the nonsense that Verstappen chose a line that was
"never" going to stay on the track.
That's a falsehood. You are not rebutting anyone.
Do you not realise you put people off reading any further.
You clearly have nothing to add to what we can see on the video
but your guesses which appear rather uneducated.
The FACT is that Verstappen chose to drive in such a way that he
would never stay on track. He created the understeer.
No. He chose to drive in a way that he THOUGHT would allow him to
stay on track, but force Hamilton off track or to fall in behind.
Did you even look at the videos you were touting earlier?
Take another look.
Less nonsense more consideration.
Look at the original overhead. There is a HUGE, obvious moment where
the car suddenly goes much straighter than it had been the moment
before, and now that we've seen the forward-facing in-car video, it
is clear that it didn't do so because Verstappen opened the wheel.
So you're seriously suggesting that Verstappen chose his line
counting on that sudden moment of understeer happening?
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:50 a.m., Bigbird wrote:https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
Alan wrote:but >>>>the >>>>>>>actual data that >>>> would tell you that is the
On 2021-11-19 4:48 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:4--I >>>>>>>>>don't get to >>>> see the data...
On 2021-11-17 1:43 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 2:49 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:46 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 20:10:45 UTC, geoff
wrote:
On 15/11/2021 9:55 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 06:59:47 UTC,a >>>> penalty for driving Hamilton off the track at turn
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-14 5:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 15/11/2021 10:52 am, Alan wrote:
I don't know for certain that Verstappen
should have received
Verstappen >>>> very obviously opened the steering wheel,
...but no INVESTIGATION necessary?
No way.
My initial reaction to seeing the
overhead shot was that
sort of >>>>thing >>>>>>>you'd only discover in an >>>> INVESTIGATION! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The video is online now atsudden >>> and significant deviation.A 'little' more than just opened tyhe
steering wheel. It was a
while >> cornering.That is precisely what you get when you
open the steering wheel
I think it was a deliberate, maybe instinctiveI was just impressed Hamilton managed to
And the weaving black and white warning
was well deserved.
Yes. They couldn't obfuscate that one.
geoff
react to avoid contact.
Maybe, maybe Verstappen opened the steering
because he'd braked too late on the dusty side
and needed to straighten up to avoid losing
front traction and sliding into Hamilton.
Maybe.
(to be kind), twitch at HAM. Unlike
similar-but-different incidents between them in
the past when contact has been made during
genuine attempts at making the corner and
passing.
And apparently didn't need to have made it ...
Whatever, in the end it is a moot point as
Hamilton got past.
It did feel like an odd decision not to
investigate though, given how other things do
get investigated.
Horner's radio to Masi sounded very like a
team boss defending the indefensible because
he had to with very little real evidence to
support his case.
geoff
My amateur reading of Max's steering inputs is
that he never aimed at the apex at all, but
neither did he open the wheel to drift out - he
was just never going to make the corner having
braked as late as he did (catching hamilton under
braking).
Am I wrong? And does that make Max's actions
right?
He simply didn't really try very hard to turn in,
did he.
He tried what he thought would be just enough to
leave him room on the track and Hamilton having to
either fall back or go off.
What advantage would there be for Verstappen to
choosing a trajectory which takes them both off, when
the opportunity was clearly there for him to be able
to stay on the track with only Hamilton going off
(and thus help get back some gap)?
The full story only really becomes obvious from
side by side laps video/telemetry but it looks to
me that he chose not to steer in. It is not
obvious that he couldn't.
It's obvious he was steering in sufficiently to let
him stay on track until he picked up a large dose of
understeer.
Watch the video from 7s to 8s at half speed. At about
7.5s, Verstappen's nose is still pointed into the
(admittedly early, but that's what an inside manoeuvre
does) apex, and then without him release any steering
wheel angle at all the car just washes wide, and he
actually starts adding steering wheel angle. Long
before he gets to the track edge, he's got nearly 90
degrees of steering wheel.
I refer you to my previous response.
I don't see that your guesses add anything.
They're not guesses.
I have no reason to consider them any more than your
previous premature and incorrect guesses.
I do not see any purpose for your response. Max did not
attempt to turn in sufficiently in time to make the corner
without punting Lewis off the track.
I agree. And I've stated that I think it would have been
illegal even if he himself had stayed on the racing surface.
The fact that when he did turn in it was so late that he had
to run miles off track is almost incidental to the intent,
or lack of.
When he chose his turn in, he chose it believing he would
stay on the track.
Why do you feel the need to make such obvious guesses or repeat
them?
I'm rebutting the nonsense that Verstappen chose a line that was
"never" going to stay on the track.
That's a falsehood. You are not rebutting anyone.
Do you not realise you put people off reading any further.
You clearly have nothing to add to what we can see on the video
but your guesses which appear rather uneducated.
The FACT is that Verstappen chose to drive in such a way that he
would never stay on track. He created the understeer.
No. He chose to drive in a way that he THOUGHT would allow him to
stay on track, but force Hamilton off track or to fall in behind.
Wrong. Why would he then get on the throttle while oversteering towards
the edge of the track.
Did you even look at the videos you were touting earlier?
Take another look.
Less nonsense more consideration.
Look at the original overhead. There is a HUGE, obvious moment where
the car suddenly goes much straighter than it had been the moment
before, and now that we've seen the forward-facing in-car video, it
is clear that it didn't do so because Verstappen opened the wheel.
Oh yes, something else you previously claimed was a certainty.
LOL.
So you're seriously suggesting that Verstappen chose his line
counting on that sudden moment of understeer happening?
No. I am saying he did not have that much control over his line nor did
he care. His mind was not on making the corner as much as blocking
Hamilton from doing so.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can
clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the
track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to
read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not
magically different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing
driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal
line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on
a trajectory to make the turn? Are you factoring in speed
to that evaluation? The trajectory might have been good
but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn
(perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the
understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on
pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be
able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right when
Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the same
speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining
cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both
on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps
done very well, but you can basically see that at the same
point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the
same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT
time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the actual
telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you were banging on
about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I don't
know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely
the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking yet
again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right off the
throttle until the point where you'd expect him to get back on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle while understeering?
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle at the
point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle
induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that
while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than the
width of the track.
You only ever look at part of the picture which is why you never
have the whole picture.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make but you won't get
anywhere while you keep claiming your poor guesses as facts when
they clearly are not.
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
You cannot infer anything when you don't understand what you are
looking at and have your eyes half shut.
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI can >>>>>>>>> clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on the
track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had to
read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not
magically different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing
driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal
line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that Lewis
has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet is still on
a trajectory to make the turn?-a Are you factoring in speed
to that evaluation?-a The trajectory might have been good
but the pace might have been excessive to achieve the turn
(perhaps that's what you're alluding do in terms of the
understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another lap on
pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to be
able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right when
Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the same
speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining
cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but both
on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two laps
done very well, but you can basically see that at the same
point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the
same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch WRT
time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the actual
telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you were banging on
about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I don't
know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I won't be able
to see it.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely
the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking yet
again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right off the
throttle until the point where you'd expect him to get back on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle while
understeering?
So was he understeering when he got back on the throttle or was he oversteering?
Because you've now claimed both.
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle at the
point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle
induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was caused by
his use of the throttle.
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that
while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than the
width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's speed
down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
You only ever look at part of the picture which is why you never
have the whole picture.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make but you won't get
anywhere while you keep claiming your poor guesses as facts when
they clearly are not.
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You cannot infer anything when you don't understand what you are
looking at and have your eyes half shut.
Sorry, sunshine, but I've been out there. I realize you think F1 cars
are magic and that that means that I can't see what a car is doing when
I've been in a car that's done what those cars are doing, but you're
wrong about that.
On 11/23/2021 2:22 PM, Alan wrote:
You cannot infer anything when you don't understand what you are
looking at and have your eyes half shut.
Sorry, sunshine, but I've been out there. I realize you think F1 cars
are magic and that that means that I can't see what a car is doing
when I've been in a car that's done what those cars are doing, but
you're wrong about that.
As usual, big woo.
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan
wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI
can clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on
the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had
to read those trajectories for myself. And no:
they're not magically different because they're F1
cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing
driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal
line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that
Lewis has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet
is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are you
factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory
might have been good but the pace might have been
excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another
lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to
be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to
position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right
when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the
same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for
determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but
both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two
laps done very well, but you can basically see that at
the same point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty
close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch
WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the
actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you
were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I
don't know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I won't be
able to see it.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost
precisely the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking
yet again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right off
the throttle until the point where you'd expect him to get back
on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle while understeering?
So was he understeering when he got back on the throttle or was he oversteering?
Because you've now claimed both.
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle at
the point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't
throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was caused
by his use of the throttle.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan
wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED ITrCoI
can clearly see a trajectory that is going to stay on
the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and had
to read those trajectories for myself. And no:
they're not magically different because they're F1
cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no racing
driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off the normal
line, into a tighter apex, so he's going faster that
Lewis has judged is "correct" for that corner and yet
is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are you
factoring in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory
might have been good but the pace might have been
excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps that's what
you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to another
lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me to
be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to
position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each right
when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely the
same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for
determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps, but
both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the two
laps done very well, but you can basically see that at
the same point in the corner, Verstappen was at pretty
close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in synch
WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the
actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you
were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I
don't know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I won't be
able to see it.
Then why do you claim to have trouble finding them. They are on the
thumbnail of the clip.
Anyone might think you a liar.
Brasil, Shows and analysis.
Do you still claim not to see them? I an happy to see you dig your hole.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost
precisely the same place from almost precisely the same speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the braking
yet again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right off
the throttle until the point where you'd expect him to get back
on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle while
understeering?
So was he understeering when he got back on the throttle or was he
oversteering?
Because you've now claimed both.
So you chose not to answer the question... instead you LIE.
I GET REALLY FED UP WHEN YOU RESORT TO LYING.
STOP IT...
... and answer the question... if you can.
Alan wrote:
>
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle at
the point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't
throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was caused
by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was understeering
what happens when he applies the throttle?
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than the
width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's speed
down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than the
width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's speed
down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at some point....
they were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way
offline.
Your pointless responses just emphasise your inability to respond intelligently.
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to read no matter respond to.
On 2021-11-24 12:08 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan
wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED
ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that is going
to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and
had to read those trajectories for myself. And no: they're not magically different because they're F1
cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no
racing driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off
the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going
faster that Lewis has judged is "correct" for that
corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn? Are you factoring in speed to that
evaluation? The trajectory might have been good
but the pace might have been excessive to achieve
the turn (perhaps that's what you're alluding do in
terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to
another lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me
to be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each
right when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely
the same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for
determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with
telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps,
but both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the
two laps done very well, but you can basically see
that at the same point in the corner, Verstappen was
at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in
synch WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the
actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you
were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I
don't know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I won't
be able to see it.
Then why do you claim to have trouble finding them. They are on the thumbnail of the clip.
When you say "the clip", which clip do you mean?
Anyone might think you a liar.
Brasil, Shows and analysis.
Do you still claim not to see them? I an happy to see you dig your
hole.
Just provide a URL.
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost precisely the same place from almost precisely the same
speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the
braking yet again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right
off the throttle until the point where you'd expect him to
get back on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle
while understeering?
So was he understeering when he got back on the throttle or was he oversteering?
Because you've now claimed both.
So you chose not to answer the question... instead you LIE.
I GET REALLY FED UP WHEN YOU RESORT TO LYING.
STOP IT...
... and answer the question... if you can.
Do you want me to provide the quote?
Ask and I will.
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle
at the point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was
caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was understeering
what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than
the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's
speed down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at some
point.... they were also no longer on the racing line and
understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms mean.
Your pointless responses just emphasise your inability to respond intelligently.
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to read no
matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:08 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC, Alan
wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER CAUSED
ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that is going
to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed and
had to read those trajectories for myself. And no:
they're not magically different because they're F1
cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no
racing driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton off
the normal line, into a tighter apex, so he's going
faster that Lewis has judged is "correct" for that
corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the
turn? Are you factoring in speed to that
evaluation? The trajectory might have been good
but the pace might have been excessive to achieve
the turn (perhaps that's what you're alluding do in
terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to
another lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough for me
to be able to distinguish throttle/brake position wrt to
position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop each
right when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost precisely
the same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for
determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with
telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different laps,
but both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between the
two laps done very well, but you can basically see
that at the same point in the corner, Verstappen was
at pretty close to the same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in
synch WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be the
actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV which you
were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on F1TV. I
don't know how the poster of the YouTube video got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I won't
be able to see it.
Then why do you claim to have trouble finding them. They are on the
thumbnail of the clip.
When you say "the clip", which clip do you mean?
Anyone might think you a liar.
Brasil, Shows and analysis.
Do you still claim not to see them? I an happy to see you dig your
hole.
Just provide a URL.
So you are claiming not to be able to find it despite my help
spoonfeeding?
That is PATHETIC!
https://f1tv.formula1.com/page/1364/formula-1-heineken-grande-premio-de-sao-paulo-2021
Still can't see it, liar?
But the fact is that Verstappen begins braking at almost
precisely the same place from almost precisely the same
speed.
Nonsense.
As you already claimed but while banging on about the
braking yet again you totally ignore the throttle.
Because in both cases, you can see that Verstappen is right
off the throttle until the point where you'd expect him to
get back on it.
Wrong.
Do you not know what happens when you get back on the throttle
while understeering?
So was he understeering when he got back on the throttle or was he
oversteering?
Because you've now claimed both.
So you chose not to answer the question... instead you LIE.
I GET REALLY FED UP WHEN YOU RESORT TO LYING.
STOP IT...
... and answer the question... if you can.
Do you want me to provide the quote?
Ask and I will.
You're a fcuking liar.
Answer the question or STFU.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
>
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the throttle
at the point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't
throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was
caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was understeering
what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
Now you just look like a liar through and through.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater than
the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's
speed down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at some
point.... they were also no longer on the racing line and
understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Wrong. Why would he then get on the throttle while oversteering
towards the edge of the track.
I can't even talk to you about this if you think that Verstappen was
EVER OVERsteering in that incident.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to read no
matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
On 2021-11-24 12:21 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:08 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC,
Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER
CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that
is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed
and had to read those trajectories for
myself. And no: they're not magically
different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no
racing driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton
off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so
he's going faster that Lewis has judged is
"correct" for that corner and yet is still on a trajectory to make the turn? Are you factoring
in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory
might have been good but the pace might have
been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps
that's what you're alluding do in terms of the understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to
another lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough
for me to be able to distinguish throttle/brake
position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop
each right when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost
precisely the same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with
telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different
laps, but both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between
the two laps done very well, but you can
basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the
same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in
synch WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be
the actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV
which you were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on
F1TV. I don't know how the poster of the YouTube video
got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I
won't be able to see it.
Then why do you claim to have trouble finding them. They are on
the thumbnail of the clip.
When you say "the clip", which clip do you mean?
Anyone might think you a liar.
Brasil, Shows and analysis.
Do you still claim not to see them? I an happy to see you dig
your hole.
Just provide a URL.
So you are claiming not to be able to find it despite my help
spoonfeeding?
That is PATHETIC!
Still can't see it, liar?
That's the general URL for a bunch of videos.
Give me the URL for a SPECIFIC video, asshole.
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the
throttle at the point where his car suddenly understeers,
so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was
caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was
understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome if one
applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent that he
is going to leave the track whether he applies it or not.
Now you just look like a liar through and through.
LOL!
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before
braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater
than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's
speed down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at some
point.... they were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to read no
matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
Remember, I'm actually a certified road racing instructor, so I'll be
grading you.
Alan wrote:
Wrong. Why would he then get on the throttle while oversteering
towards the edge of the track.
I can't even talk to you about this if you think that Verstappen was
EVER OVERsteering in that incident.
A simple mistype as you know from my other posts unless you are
claiming to be a complete buffoon.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before
braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually greater
than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the car's
speed down to the same as it was in the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at some
point.... they were also no longer on the racing line and
understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want to concentrate on Hamilton now.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
>
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the
throttle at the point where his car suddenly understeers,
so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer was
caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was
understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome if one
applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent that he
is going to leave the track whether he applies it or not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when he did did
not contribute to his line.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to read no
matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when you have
proven your incompetence, unwillingness and inability to answer any of
my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually
greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the
car's speed down to the same as it was in the comparison
to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at
some point.... they were also no longer on the racing line
and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms
mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want to concentrate on Hamilton now.
Did you not just say:
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way
offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
On 2021-11-24 12:40 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to
read no matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when you have
proven your incompetence, unwillingness and inability to answer any
of my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
No. I do not know that at all.##
On 2021-11-24 12:33 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the
throttle at the point where his car suddenly
understeers, so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer
was caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was
understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome if
one applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent
that he is going to leave the track whether he applies it or not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when he did
did not contribute to his line.
I'm claiming that at the time and place he applied the throttle it
was already completely apparent that he was going to go off the
track. Apparent to him and everyone else who actually understands
racing vehicle dynamics.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:Did you not just say:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before
braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually
greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the
car's speed down to the same as it was in the comparison
to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at
some point.... they were also no longer on the racing line
and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms
mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want to
concentrate on Hamilton now.
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way
offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
Yet it is you who choose to abandon your original argument and divert.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:40 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to
read no matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when you have
proven your incompetence, unwillingness and inability to answer any
of my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
No. I do not know that at all.##
Liar.
Transparently evasive.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:33 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
>
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off the
throttle at the point where his car suddenly
understeers, so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the understeer
was caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was
understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome if
one applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent
that he is going to leave the track whether he applies it or not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when he did
did not contribute to his line.
I'm claiming that at the time and place he applied the throttle it
was already completely apparent that he was going to go off the
track. Apparent to him and everyone else who actually understands
racing vehicle dynamics.
Do you really.
I understand that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Only a complete moron would claim that applying the throttle when he
did had no consequences on his line.
On 2021-11-25 2:01 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:Did you not just say:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame before
braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually
greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got the
car's speed down to the same as it was in the comparison
to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at
some point.... they were also no longer on the racing line
and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms
mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want to
concentrate on Hamilton now.
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way
offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
Yet it is you who choose to abandon your original argument and divert.Really?
What argument did I supposedly "abandon"?
Did you claim that Hamilton understeered?
Yes or no.
Yes or no.
...but irrelevant.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:21 p.m., Bigbird wrote:https://f1tv.formula1.com/page/1364/formula-1-heineken-grande-premio-de-sao-paulo-2021
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:08 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 4:54 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-19 1:12 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 22:15:41 UTC,
Alan wrote:
Until he picks up the understeerrCoWHATEVER
CAUSED ITrCoI can clearly see a trajectory that
is going to stay on the track.
But then, I've been in a racing car at speed
and had to read those trajectories for
myself. And no: they're not magically
different because they're F1 cars.
That's the only bit I struggle with (and I'm no
racing driver); but Max is overtaking Hamilton
off the normal line, into a tighter apex, so
he's going faster that Lewis has judged is
"correct" for that corner and yet is still on a
trajectory to make the turn? Are you factoring
in speed to that evaluation? The trajectory
might have been good but the pace might have
been excessive to achieve the turn (perhaps
that's what you're alluding do in terms of the
understeer?
I've seen a video that compares the incident to
another lap on pretty close to the same line.
You will have noted the steering angles then.
I saw some telemetry but it was not clear enough
for me to be able to distinguish throttle/brake
position wrt to position.
Then you should pay more attention.
Just run each video at 0.25 speed and you can stop
each right when Verstappen applies the brakes...
...in almost precisely the same spot at almost
precisely the same speed.
You will acknowledge that they are as important for
determining cause of understeer.
This video shows Hamilton and Verstappen with
telemetry:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVqHI3m9JM>
And this one shows Verstappen on two different
laps, but both on the tighter inside line.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3eLfA9RTko>
The second video doesn't have the synch between
the two laps done very well, but you can
basically see that at the same point in the
corner, Verstappen was at pretty close to the
same speed (about
I haven't followed the link but usually they are in
synch WRT time, perfectly...
And you know this, because?
And synched at what point?
You put such store in them that I assumed they would be
the actual telemetry traces as available seen on F1TV
which you were banging on about previously.
I'm sorry, but those telemetry traces aren't shown on
F1TV. I don't know how the poster of the YouTube video
got them.
Be sorry for being wrong. That is where I saw them.
Link, please! I'm an F1TV subscriber so don't worry that I
won't be able to see it.
Then why do you claim to have trouble finding them. They are on
the thumbnail of the clip.
When you say "the clip", which clip do you mean?
Anyone might think you a liar.
Brasil, Shows and analysis.
Do you still claim not to see them? I an happy to see you dig
your hole.
Just provide a URL.
So you are claiming not to be able to find it despite my help
spoonfeeding?
That is PATHETIC!
Still can't see it, liar?
That's the general URL for a bunch of videos.
Give me the URL for a SPECIFIC video, asshole.
The ASSHOLE is the person who claims that he cannot see a clip with
telemetry traces.
Keep digging ASSHOLE
https://f1tv.formula1.com/detail/1000004973/weekend-debrief-sao-paulo
Would you like a close up picture of the telemetry too.
You hopeless wanker.
I cannot have been used to create the live,
I cannot have been used
I cannot have been used to create the live,
I cannot have been used to create the live,
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that
while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that
while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would
have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly
clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and "mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote:
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that >>>>> while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would
have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly
clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and
"mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
rCLCromulentrCY - nice word, wonder how many people have come across it? ;-)
Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote:
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives
given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron...
Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that >>>>> while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would
have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly
clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and
"mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
rCLCromulentrCY - nice word, wonder how many people have come across it? ;-)
On 2/12/2021 12:15 am, Sir Tim wrote:
Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote:
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives >>>>>>> given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron... >>>>>>Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that >>>>>> while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to
imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would
have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly
clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and
"mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
rCLCromulentrCY - nice word, wonder how many people have come across it? ;-)
Me - twice now.
On 01/12/2021 22:16, geoff wrote:
On 2/12/2021 12:15 am, Sir Tim wrote:
Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote:
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives >>>>>>>> given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron... >>>>>>>Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that >>>>>>> while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not
exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to >>>>>> imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would >>>> have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly >>>> clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and >>>> "mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
rCLCromulentrCY - nice word, wonder how many people have come across it? ;-)
Me - twice now.
Same here and both of them in this chain.
Fires up a search engine ...
Cheers
Geoff
Geoff May <GeoffMay_do_not_spam_me@nospam.com> wrote:
On 01/12/2021 22:16, geoff wrote:
On 2/12/2021 12:15 am, Sir Tim wrote:
Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> wrote:
Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
On 2021-11-23 2:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-20 2:41 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Also you can not possibly make such a claim from the perspectives >>>>>>>>> given. There is no precision. "Almost precisely" is an oxymoron... >>>>>>>>Almost precisely is a perfectly useful expression that indicates that >>>>>>>> while their is a difference, it is perishingly small.
Yet it isn't. Almost means "not exactly" and if something is not >>>>>>> exactly precisely then it is not precise so it is pure ignorance to >>>>>>> imply otherwise.
Amazingly (to you), English is a language that has "idioms".
Look it up.
It's not particularly an idiom, a whole range of other languages would >>>>> have exactly the same construct, even non-IE ones, and it is perfectly >>>>> clear in its meaning. It's no more confusing than saying track
renovations are "mostly complete", say: yes, "complete" means all, and >>>>> "mostly" modifies that, and together the idea has been communicated
perfectly cromulently. Just ignore him.
Phil
rCLCromulentrCY - nice word, wonder how many people have come across it? ;-)
Me - twice now.
Same here and both of them in this chain.
Fires up a search engine ...
Cheers
Geoff
Jebediah Springfield: rCLA noble spirit embiggens the smallest manrCY
Teacher 1 (to Teacher 2): rCLI never heard the word rCLembiggenrCY before I moved
to SpringfieldrCY.
Teacher 2: rCLI don't know why, It's a perfectly cromulent word.rCY
The Simpsons - rCLLisa the IconoclastrCY.
On 2021-11-25 2:03 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:40 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it
instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to
read no matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer"
means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when you
have proven your incompetence, unwillingness and inability to
answer any of my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
No. I do not know that at all.##
Liar.
Transparently evasive.
Nope.
You've claimed both that Verstappen oversteered and understeered (and
now claim it was just a "mistype")...
...and you've claimed that Hamilton understeered off the track.
So, no: I really don't think you truly understand what "understeer"
means.
On 2021-11-25 2:01 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame
before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually
greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got
the car's speed down to the same as it was in the
comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at
some point.... they were also no longer on the racing
line and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms
mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want
to concentrate on Hamilton now.
Did you not just say:
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
Yet it is you who choose to abandon your original argument and
divert.
Really?
What argument did I supposedly "abandon"?
On 2021-11-25 2:07 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:33 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off
the throttle at the point where his car suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the
understeer was caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome
if one applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent
that he is going to leave the track whether he applies it or
not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when he
did did not contribute to his line.
I'm claiming that at the time and place he applied the throttle it
was already completely apparent that he was going to go off the
track. Apparent to him and everyone else who actually understands
racing vehicle dynamics.
Do you really.
I understand that you have no fucking clue what you are talking
about.
Only a complete moron would claim that applying the throttle when he
did had no consequences on his line.
Since I didn't claim that, it's true...
...but irrelevant.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:03 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:40 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it
instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am willing to
read no matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer"
means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when you
have proven your incompetence, unwillingness and inability to
answer any of my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
No. I do not know that at all.##
Liar.
Transparently evasive.
Nope.
You've claimed both that Verstappen oversteered and understeered (and
now claim it was just a "mistype")...
...and you've claimed that Hamilton understeered off the track.
So, no: I really don't think you truly understand what "understeer"
means.
Liar.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:01 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:Did you not just say:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame
before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is actually
greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he got
the car's speed down to the same as it was in the
comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal speed at
some point.... they were also no longer on the racing
line and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics terms
mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you want
to concentrate on Hamilton now.
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and understeering way
offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
Yet it is you who choose to abandon your original argument and
divert.
Really?
What argument did I supposedly "abandon"?
How Ironic. Claiming not to know what you were previously arguing.
QED.
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:07 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:33 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
>
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way off
the throttle at the point where his car suddenly
understeers, so it wasn't throttle induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the
understeer was caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he was
understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one outcome
if one applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes apparent
that he is going to leave the track whether he applies it or
not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when he
did did not contribute to his line.
I'm claiming that at the time and place he applied the throttle it
was already completely apparent that he was going to go off the
track. Apparent to him and everyone else who actually understands
racing vehicle dynamics.
Do you really.
I understand that you have no fucking clue what you are talking
about.
Only a complete moron would claim that applying the throttle when he
did had no consequences on his line.
Since I didn't claim that, it's true...
...but irrelevant.
QED.
In claiming that it is irrelevant you have just confirmed my assertion.
You totally ignored throttle application while making a number of
claims, some clearly false, which are rendered complete nonsense when
the available information is considered.
Be honest, right from claiming Max opened his steering to claiming 12m
(or more) is negligible to claiming the throttle position is irrelevant
to a cars line,
you fucked up... all while claiming you were rebutting
a statement that was never made.
On 2021-12-04 8:56 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:07 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:33 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:23 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:10 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
More importantly, Verstappen is all the way
off the throttle at the point where his car
suddenly understeers, so it wasn't throttle
induced.
<sigh> Such a tiny part of the picture.
You say that now... ...after implying that the
understeer was caused by his use of the throttle.
LIAR.
STOP LYING.
I'm not.
BUT instead of avoiding the question again. If he
was understeering what happens when he applies the throttle?
That depends on how much throttle he applies.
Avoidance.
Nope. And actual understanding that there is not one
outcome if one applies the throttle while understeering.
LOL.
You can see how much throttle he applies and the result.
You can see he applies the throttle after it becomes
apparent that he is going to leave the track whether he
applies it or not.
So you are claiming that applying the throttle as and when
he did did not contribute to his line.
I'm claiming that at the time and place he applied the
throttle it was already completely apparent that he was going
to go off the track. Apparent to him and everyone else who
actually understands racing vehicle dynamics.
Do you really.
I understand that you have no fucking clue what you are talking
about.
Only a complete moron would claim that applying the throttle
when he did had no consequences on his line.
Since I didn't claim that, it's true...
...but irrelevant.
QED.
In claiming that it is irrelevant you have just confirmed my
assertion.
I didn't claim that applying the throttle had no consequences.
You totally ignored throttle application while making a number of
claims, some clearly false, which are rendered complete nonsense
when the available information is considered.
I ignored throttle application as a possible cause of the understeer
that eventually (eventually!) sent him off the track...
...because no throttle was being applied at that time.
Be honest, right from claiming Max opened his steering to claiming
12m
I THOUGHT Max must have opened his steering when we didn't yet have
the in-car view forward; as did no lesser expert than Martin Brundle.
(or more) is negligible to claiming the throttle position is
irrelevant to a cars line,
Nope. I never once claimed that. That's just a lie.
you fucked up... all while claiming you were rebutting
a statement that was never made.
What the hell are you talking about?
On 2021-12-04 8:46 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:01 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:35 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:24 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:14 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
How far does the 33 car travel in just one frame
before braking?
25 frames per second 306km per hour. Do the
maths.
I count 4 frames.
So in your opinion "almost precisely" is
actually greater than the width of the track.
Which is irrelevant when you look to see that he
got the car's speed down to the same as it was in
the comparison to lap 58.
What a meaningless assertion.
Both cars had to slow to much less than optimal
speed at some point.... they were also no longer
on the racing line and understeering way offline.
No, actually. Hamilton's car was not "understeering".
You remain confused about that basic racing dynamics
terms mean.
..and yet more irrelevance.
I see your white flag.
Quick yes or no question:
Was Hamilton understeering in that incident?
You're really waving that white flag now.
The discussion is about Verstappen's line so obviously you
want to concentrate on Hamilton now.
Did you not just say:
"THEY were also no longer on the racing line and
understeering way offline"?
Or is it you just don't know what the word "they" means?
Yet it is you who choose to abandon your original argument and
divert.
Really?
What argument did I supposedly "abandon"?
How Ironic. Claiming not to know what you were previously arguing.
QED.
So you couldn't articulate it.
Gotcha.
On 2021-12-04 8:43 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-25 2:03 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:40 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:25 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-24 12:17 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan wrote:
[snip] absolute rubbish and yet more guesses.
LOL
So you couldn't refute a word and just snipped it instead.
Got it.
You say that but you never get it.
I get it very, very well.
In that case you admit your responses are bullshit.
Nope.
There is only so much of your dumb shit I am
willing to read no matter respond to.
Says that man who doesn't even know what "understeer" means...
LIAR.
Just a tedious little liar.
Without looking it up, give us YOUR definition of
understeer.
What makes you think you get to ask me basic questions when
you have proven your incompetence, unwillingness and
inability to answer any of my questions so completely?
You know I know what understeer is.
No. I do not know that at all.##
Liar.
Transparently evasive.
Nope.
You've claimed both that Verstappen oversteered and understeered
(and now claim it was just a "mistype")...
...and you've claimed that Hamilton understeered off the track.
So, no: I really don't think you truly understand what
"understeer" means.
Liar.
I'm sorry, but those are the things you said. Even if "oversteer" was
just a brainfart, Hamilton did not "understeer" off the track.
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