On 11/15/2021 2:03 AM, Alan wrote:

On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:

On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:

Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?

I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference between
a warm day and a cool day ...

85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature.-a It's the FIA's responsibility
to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature,
but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.

Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.

Thereby making the definition of the millimetre temperature-dependent.
That's about the *worst* one could hope for.

If the temperature behavior of the gauge is significant then the FIA
would arrange to keep the gauge at a suitably fixed temperature; it
isn't, and they don't.

It's still the teams' responsibility to assure the cars are legal.
Since we're talking about a one-sided spec competent engineering
requires an arrangement with a suitable margin of safety - and
sufficient robustness so it doesn't break under use conditions. Toto's "excuses" are just hot air.

--
Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
The best I can do is freak out in moderation.
- Bob Mankoff
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On 2021-11-15 9:03 a.m., Mark Jackson wrote:

On 11/15/2021 2:03 AM, Alan wrote:

On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:

On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:

Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?

I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference
between a warm day and a cool day ...

85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature.-a It's the FIA's responsibility
to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary with temperature,
but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure cars meet the
specifications at all testable times during the event.

Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is
impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.

Thereby making the definition of the millimetre temperature-dependent. That's about the *worst* one could hope for.

No. The definition of a millimetre is NOT temperature dependent.

My understanding is that the FIA uses a device that is simply a disc
shape that is 85mm in diameter. Obviously that measurement is taken at
some specific temperature. If it can pass through the gap with less than
a certain force (as I understand it) then the wing fails the test.

If the temperature behavior of the gauge is significant then the FIA
would arrange to keep the gauge at a suitably fixed temperature; it
isn't, and they don't.

I agree that it's quite likely that the temperature behaviour is small,
but whether or not it is significant under any and all circumstances, I
can tell you.

What I can tell you is that it wouldn't be that difficult to arrange
that the gauge and the wing have very similar behaviour with temperature change rendering the change moot.

It's still the teams' responsibility to assure the cars are legal. Since we're talking about a one-sided spec competent engineering requires an arrangement with a suitable margin of safety - and sufficient robustness
so it doesn't break under use conditions.-a Toto's "excuses" are just hot air.

Yes. We have no disagreement here.
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On 11/15/2021 1:56 PM, Alan wrote:

On 2021-11-15 9:03 a.m., Mark Jackson wrote:

On 11/15/2021 2:03 AM, Alan wrote:

On 2021-11-14 7:13 p.m., Mark Jackson wrote:

On 11/14/2021 9:22 PM, geoff wrote:

Are they somehow normalised for things like ambient temperature ?

I would guess that a 0.2mm difference could be the difference
between a warm day and a cool day ...

85mm is 85mm whatever the temperature.-a It's the FIA's
responsibility to provide a measurement device that doesn't vary
with temperature, but entirely the teams' responsibility to ensure
cars meet the specifications at all testable times during the event.

Just as it is impossible to produce a wing that doesn't flex, it is
impossible to make an 85mm (nominal) physical gauge what doesn't vary
with temperature. The best one could hope for is that you design one
with the same thermal expansion coefficient as the carbon composites
from which they make the wings.

Thereby making the definition of the millimetre temperature-dependent.
That's about the *worst* one could hope for.

No. The definition of a millimetre is NOT temperature dependent.

Having a temperature-dependent test to determine whether a gap is more
than 85mm does, in fact, make the "Art. 3.6.3 of the 2021 FIA Formula 1 Technical Regulations" millimetre temperature dependent.

My understanding is that the FIA uses a device that is simply a disc
shape that is 85mm in diameter. Obviously that measurement is taken at
some specific temperature. If it can pass through the gap with less than
a certain force (as I understand it) then the wing fails the test.

I believe you are entirely correct here, and this is laid out in
Technical Directive 011-19 - which isn't public, of course, but is
referred to in document 29 from Saturday.

If the temperature behavior of the gauge is significant then the FIA
would arrange to keep the gauge at a suitably fixed temperature; it
isn't, and they don't.

I agree that it's quite likely that the temperature behaviour is small,
but whether or not it is significant under any and all circumstances, I
can tell you.

I assume you mean "can't tell you" but it's not hard to find a material
that would vary so little over the range of ambient temperatures
encountered by the F1 circus that uncertainty in the specified
measurement would be dominated by uncertainty in the "certain force"
called for in the TD (10 Nt as it happens).

What I can tell you is that it wouldn't be that difficult to arrange
that the gauge and the wing have very similar behaviour with temperature change rendering the change moot.

Which would mean the teams could safely engineer their rear wing gaps to exceed 85 real mm on a hot day. Convoluted, unnecessary nonsense, frankly.

--
Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
The best I can do is freak out in moderation.
- Bob Mankoff
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On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 12:02:09 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

You need to read up on the thermal expansion of carbon composites.

you need to go fuck yourself
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On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

What I can tell you is

fuck off asshole
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On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

Yes. We have no disagreement here.

you fucking piece of shit
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