• Restart procedure...

    From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 13:40:17 2020
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From texas gate@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 08:01:44 2020
    On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 7:40:20 AM UTC-6, Bigbird wrote:

    Remind me why they changed it.

    blow me
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 08:28:55 2020
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 15:37:15 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan LeHun@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 17:27:52 2020
    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
    regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the same
    place for this track.




    --
    Alan LeHun

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 10:06:43 2020
    On 2020-09-13 9:27 a.m., Alan LeHun wrote:
    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
    regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the same place for this track.

    No, I don't think that's the case.

    The safety line defines the first point that the leader can start to accelerate by the rules. The start line defines the last point that the
    leader can start to accelerate...

    ...if he wants to remain the leader.

    :-)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 17:50:08 2020
    Alan LeHun wrote:

    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
    same place for this track.

    I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
    previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
    in 2019.

    If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
    behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
    allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line although I could tell you which years each happened.


    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 18:24:44 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 9:27 a.m., Alan LeHun wrote:
    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
    same place for this track.

    No, I don't think that's the case.

    The safety line defines the first point that the leader can start to accelerate by the rules. The start line defines the last point that
    the leader can start to accelerate...

    ...if he wants to remain the leader.

    Utter rubbish.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From geoff@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 09:56:49 2020
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

    geoff
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 15:13:48 2020
    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
    limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800 feet
    from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field can't see
    the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station, and
    they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
    precisely the same moment.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 23:05:39 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
    limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
    feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
    can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
    and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't aware
    but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 13 16:50:45 2020
    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
    limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
    feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
    can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
    and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
    precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't aware
    but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

    It's what is used for:

    Yellow flags.

    Blue flags.

    Green flags (currently "waved" at the station beyond an incident to let
    a driver know that he is once again in a racing section of the track).

    Red flags.

    "SC" signs.

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From ~misfit~@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 16:46:27 2020
    On 14/09/2020 5:50 am, Bigbird wrote:
    Alan LeHun wrote:

    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>,
    bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
    regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
    same place for this track.

    I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
    in 2019.

    If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
    behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
    allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line although I could tell you which years each happened.

    I thought that was changed due to someone going into the pits and gaining positions? Or not...
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From ~misfit~@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 16:51:02 2020
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.

    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
    The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
    teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Brian Lawrence@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 06:36:34 2020
    On 14/09/2020 05:46, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 5:50 am, Bigbird wrote:
    Alan LeHun wrote:

    In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>,
    bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...

    I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
    (back) to no overtaking until the start line.


    I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
    regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
    same place for this track.

    I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
    previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
    in 2019.

    If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
    behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
    allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line
    although I could tell you which years each happened.

    I thought that was changed due to someone going into the pits and
    gaining positions? Or not...

    There's an article from 2011 here:


    <https://www.racefans.net/2011/12/07/lapped-cars-allowed-pass-safety-car-2012/> --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 09:07:35 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
    when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
    moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
    is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
    nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
    entire field can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
    station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
    to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
    aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be an
    expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
    advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?



    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From larkim@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 03:37:08 2020
    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
    The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
    teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 12:37:30 2020
    larkim wrote:

    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
    F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
    didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four
    races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
    teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
    incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
    race....
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
    has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
    half-arsed self-promoting software.
    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
    exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
    driving have helped on Sunday?

    From decision, note third paragraph.

    "The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the inconsistent
    application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the pit straight, by the
    above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location of
    the Control
    Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
    advantage of the restart.

    However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be exercised
    in the restart
    situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect which dramatically
    increased as it moved down the field.

    We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in the incident had
    they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so they effectively blocked
    off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of the
    preceding car. "

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From larkim@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 06:19:31 2020
    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 13:37:32 UTC+1, Bigbird wrote:
    larkim wrote:

    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
    F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
    didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four
    races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
    teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
    incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
    race....
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
    has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
    exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
    driving have helped on Sunday?
    From decision, note third paragraph.

    "The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the inconsistent
    application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the pit straight, by the
    above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location of
    the Control
    Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
    advantage of the restart.

    However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be exercised
    in the restart
    situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect which dramatically
    increased as it moved down the field.

    We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in the incident had
    they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so they effectively blocked
    off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of the preceding car. "
    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    Yep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the concertina effect.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Mon Sep 14 09:59:03 2020
    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
    when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
    moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
    is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
    nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
    entire field can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
    station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
    to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
    aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims, actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From ~misfit~@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 12:07:04 2020
    On 14/09/2020 10:37 pm, larkim wrote:
    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
    The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
    teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?

    For the Toyota Racing Series in NZ over January / February the rules are different to the rest of
    the worlds open wheeler FIA rules. Here weaving to get tyre temp is not allowed once the lights go
    off on the safety car. It makes re-starts much safer but catches out overseas drivers, there's
    usually a penalty or two handed out in the first few races until they get it.

    Watching the Mugello GP safety car re-start I couldn't help but think that the same rule would be a
    good idea in F1 as well. That way the drivers can be concentrating on getting the start right
    rather than their tyre / brake temps.
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
    in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 06:26:34 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver
    control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
    then everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
    moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
    track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
    located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
    that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
    station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
    back to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
    aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly
    well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
    an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels
    alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims, actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

    So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to elaborate
    on what you don't understand.

    Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
    explanation do you need?

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 00:06:49 2020
    On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver
    control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
    then everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
    moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
    track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
    located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
    that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
    station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
    back to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
    aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly
    well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
    an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
    advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels
    alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims, actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

    So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to elaborate
    on what you don't understand.

    I asked you first...

    ...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.

    :-)


    Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
    explanation do you need?

    Again:

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    Or are you scared to answer?

    :-)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 09:15:30 2020
    larkim wrote:

    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 13:37:32 UTC+1, Bigbird wrote:
    larkim wrote:

    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend
    the F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety
    car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to
    minimise the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it
    OK over four races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
    teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
    incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
    race....
    --
    Shaun.

    "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious
    belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
    David Melville

    This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to
    the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
    driving have helped on Sunday?
    From decision, note third paragraph.

    "The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the inconsistent
    application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the
    pit straight, by the
    above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location
    of the Control
    Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
    advantage of the restart.

    However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be
    exercised in the restart
    situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect
    which dramatically
    increased as it moved down the field.

    We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in
    the incident had
    they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so
    they effectively blocked
    off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of
    the preceding car. "
    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    Yep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they
    were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for
    left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all
    you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the
    concertina effect.

    From the replays I've seen I think the catalyst was George Russell who
    dropped back for a timed run for the line but went too early then found
    himself baulked and had to slow up. All the cars around him followed
    this lead some assuming they were underway and were caught out when the
    cars in front slowed up.

    We don't know what was said in the drivers briefing but I think that
    despite the regs it would take some specific instructions to prevent
    drivers trying to gain such an advantage.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 09:31:46 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver
    control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
    and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
    same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
    on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
    is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
    it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
    green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every
    marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
    everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
    aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
    to be an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
    that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
    is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
    flags/panels alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
    actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

    So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
    elaborate on what you don't understand.

    I asked you first...


    Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited your knowledge is.

    Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
    also utilise in ear tones.

    Do you need more explained?

    ...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.


    ??

    Fuckwit.



    Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
    explanation do you need?

    Again:

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

    The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able to
    see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
    also utilise in ear tones.

    Panels alone leave too much room for errors.


    Or are you scared to answer?

    Fuckwit.


    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From a425couple@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 08:32:32 2020
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal? 2. Is it safe?
    3. Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 09:49:59 2020
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently before
    that.

    Straight from our race regulations:

    Racing Commences At The Green Flag

    'A.

    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green light),
    is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be seen by
    the driver.

    B.

    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
    all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
    displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
    positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.

    C.

    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
    be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
    Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'



    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.

    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From a425couple@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 10:44:09 2020
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
    begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green light),
    is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be seen by
    the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
    all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
    positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
    be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
    Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"
    "What speed is prohibited?"
    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    (This is all a separate subject from the initial
    starting of a race. The normal instructions to
    the pole setter are that after the Safety Car pulls
    off, the pole sitter is in charge of setting the
    pace and it is to be mild acceleration until
    the green flag is waved. So, of course he will
    normally go to where he has peak torque.)
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From a425couple@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 10:59:24 2020
    On 9/14/2020 3:37 AM, larkim wrote:
    On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.
    What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
    The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
    the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.

    It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
    teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
    --
    Shaun.


    It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.

    Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.

    Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?

    As to your above question, I would believe 'single file'
    would be more dangerous. The car in front would block
    forward vision.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 11:13:29 2020
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
    before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
    light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be
    seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
    all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
    displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
    positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
    be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
    Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    2. In F1, the rules state that there is no passing until you get to the "control line" (we just call it "start/finish line"). Under our rules,
    you can pass and be passed immediately once the green flag flies.



    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    Not in that part of the regulations, no. But:

    '12.1.A.8

    The pole sitting race car will assume the role of pacing the field and
    will pace the field at a slow and constant speed and in accordance with instructions that may be given by the clerk of the course.'

    Now, "constant means no acceleration or deceleration, so the only
    possible speed the leader can possibly use is the one set by the pace
    car before the lights were turned off, but I would still contend that
    the rule should be rewritten slightly:

    'The pole sitting race car will assume the role of pacing the field and
    will pace the field at the same speed established by the pace car
    immediately before its lights were turned off, and in accordance with instructions that may be given by the clerk of the course.'



    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"

    Essentially, no.

    "What speed is prohibited?"

    Any speed above what was set by the pace car.

    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    Using the starter's eyes and judgement.


    (This is all a separate subject from the initial
    starting of a race.-a The normal instructions to
    the pole setter are that after the Safety Car pulls
    off, the pole sitter is in charge of setting the
    pace and it is to be mild acceleration until
    the green flag is waved.-a So, of course he will
    normally go to where he has peak torque.)

    I'd like to see your reference for the contention that there "is to be
    mild acceleration until the green flag"...

    Where in the rules for ICSCC does it say that?

    Because what I read when I look at the rules is:

    'The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
    constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the
    starter. '

    <https://www.icscc.com/references/comp_regs_2020.pdf>

    "Constant pace" means no acceleration at all.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 11:15:40 2020
    On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
    before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
    light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
    be seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
    area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
    first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
    positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
    shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
    penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished


    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    ...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
    constant speed until the green flag is waved.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From a425couple@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Tue Sep 15 14:03:24 2020
    On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
    everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
    before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
    light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
    be seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
    area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
    first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
    be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
    shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
    penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished


    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    ...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a constant speed until the green flag is waved.

    I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
    issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
    on the start of the race, and a restart.

    Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
    a restart. Note the repeated use of word "restart".

    Again:
    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"
    "What speed is prohibited?"
    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
    those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

    " When conditions permit,
    the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
    permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
    shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."

    "Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Wed Sep 16 14:47:45 2020
    On 2020-09-15 2:03 p.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when >>>>>>> everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
    before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
    light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to >>>>> be seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
    area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
    first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
    be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
    shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to >>>>> penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished


    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    ...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
    constant speed until the green flag is waved.

    I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
    issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
    on the start of the race, and a restart.

    Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
    a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".

    Again:
    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    You're splitting hairs, L...


    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.


    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"

    No.

    "What speed is prohibited?"

    Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
    it turned out its lights.

    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    By experience and judgement.


    The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
    those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

    Which starts would those be?


    " When conditions permit,
    the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
    permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
    shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."

    "Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!



    If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
    position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From a425couple@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Thu Sep 17 15:24:12 2020
    On 9/16/2020 2:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 2:03 p.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when >>>>>>>> everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
    everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
    before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
    light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able
    to be seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting >>>>>> area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is >>>>>> first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag >>>>>> be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
    attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
    shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject
    to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'

    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished


    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    ...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
    constant speed until the green flag is waved.

    I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
    issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
    on the start of the race, and a restart.

    Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
    a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".

    Again:
    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    You're splitting hairs, L...


    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.


    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"

    No.

    "What speed is prohibited?"

    Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
    it turned out its lights.

    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    By experience and judgement.


    The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
    those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

    Which starts would those be?


    " When conditions permit,
    the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
    permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
    shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."

    "Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!

    If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
    position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.

    Sheesh.
    For restarts, there is no written rule against the leader
    accelerating.
    Holding position, means not passing anyone.
    The leader can accelerate after the pace car pulls off.

    You have gotten used to one way.
    That does not mean your rules dictate things be that way.
    Just like F1 got used to the leader flooring it
    by the last corner.
    But, in this last race Bottas did not, and he was
    not required to.

    Sept. 3 2006. Group 6 We had a full course yellow
    for laps 10 & 11. I was very concerned that Styan
    that I had been leading would jump me on the restart.
    I accelerated hard half way through what was then
    the last turn. The Starter / Flagger gave me the
    Green.
    JUST LIKE F1 now mostly does.
    I took 1st Overall in Group 6 Sports Racers & FV.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Thu Sep 17 16:46:43 2020
    On 2020-09-17 3:24 p.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/16/2020 2:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 2:03 p.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
    On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver control >>>>>>>>> when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then >>>>>>>>> everyone begins racing at the same moment.

    Perhaps that is true now.

    Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
    Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?

    It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...

    ...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently >>>>>>> before that.

    Straight from our race regulations:
    Racing Commences At The Green Flag
    'A.
    A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green >>>>>>> light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able >>>>>>> to be seen by the driver.
    B.
    During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting >>>>>>> area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is >>>>>>> first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green
    flag be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
    C.
    Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or >>>>>>> attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, >>>>>>> shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject >>>>>>> to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.' >>>>>>>
    I recall hearing the long time person say,
    "My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
    3.-a Is it fair?"

    I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
    the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
    Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.


    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.

    Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished


    1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un

    ...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
    constant speed until the green flag is waved.

    I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
    issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
    on the start of the race, and a restart.

    Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
    a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".

    Again:
    I do not see anything in your written regulations
    that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
    or the restarts I described.

    You're splitting hairs, L...


    Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
    speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.

    The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.


    I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
    asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.

    "Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
    right to determine his own desired speed?"

    No.

    "What speed is prohibited?"

    Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
    it turned out its lights.

    "How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"

    By experience and judgement.


    The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
    those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.

    Which starts would those be?


    " When conditions permit,
    the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
    permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
    shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."

    "Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!

    If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
    position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.

    Sheesh.
    For restarts, there is no written rule against the leader
    accelerating.

    There is a general rule which CLEARLY applies.

    Holding position, means not passing anyone.
    The leader can accelerate after the pace car pulls off.

    No. He cannot.

    Given the layout of many circuits, how could the leader judge just when
    that might be safe to do?


    You have gotten used to one way.
    That does not mean your rules dictate things be that way.
    Just like F1 got used to the leader flooring it
    by the last corner.
    But, in this last race Bottas did not, and he was
    not required to.

    I agree. He was not required to...

    ...and F1's rules led to chaos.


    Sept. 3 2006.-a Group 6-a We had a full course yellow
    for laps 10 & 11.-a I was very concerned that Styan
    that I had been leading would jump me on the restart.
    I accelerated hard half way through what was then
    the last turn.-a The Starter / Flagger gave me the
    Green.

    The fact that he did doesn't guarantee your actions were within the
    rules at the time.

    JUST LIKE F1 now mostly does.
    I took 1st Overall in Group 6 Sports Racers & FV.

    And I'm happy for you.

    However, it seems quite clear that it is safer for all participants to
    go from pacing to racing TOGETHER.

    The existing ICSCC rules don't have a separate procedure listed for
    restarts, L; only for starting. And those rules say:

    'The grid must be orderly, in a tight formation and be moving at a
    constant and moderate pace prior to receiving the green flag from the starter.'

    (Rule 709)

    The word "accelerate" (which you earlier claimed was something the
    leader was allowed to do) does not appear in the rules...

    ...AT ALL.

    <https://www.icscc.com/references/comp_regs_2020.pdf>

    If there are no separate instructions for conduct during restarts, why
    do you imagine that you can do whatever you like?
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Alan Baker@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Fri Sep 18 23:00:15 2020
    On 2020-09-15 2:31 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading driver
    control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
    and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
    same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
    on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
    is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
    it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
    green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every
    marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
    everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
    aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works
    perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
    to be an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
    that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
    is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
    flags/panels alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
    actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

    So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
    elaborate on what you don't understand.

    I asked you first...


    Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited your knowledge is.

    Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
    also utilise in ear tones.

    Yeah...

    ...and a system that informs the TEAMS (not the driver directly) is
    useful in the scenario of a safe restart...


    how?


    Do you need more explained?

    ...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.


    ??

    Fuckwit.



    Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
    explanation do you need?

    Again:

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

    Green is pretty well understood, and the fact that one driver forgot his obligation to look at the marshaling signals is hardly an indictment of
    the entire system.


    The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able to
    see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

    Now you're just make shit up?


    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
    also utilise in ear tones.

    They could release white doves... ...but we're talking about what they
    ARE doing...

    ...and the "official messaging system informs the TEAM...

    ...who would then have to inform the driver that racing is back on.


    Panels alone leave too much room for errors.

    And yet panels (and flags) have been used successfully for decades for everything else.



    Or are you scared to answer?

    Fuckwit.

    LOL
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)
  • From Bigbird@24:150/2 to rec.autos.sport.f1 on Sun Sep 20 12:46:43 2020
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-15 2:31 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
    Alan Baker wrote:

    On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
    On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
    On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
    ...will probably get a rethink.

    Remind me why they changed it.


    I've always thought that letting the leading
    driver control when everyone can take off is a
    bit dicey.

    When our races restart, we wait for the green
    flag, and then everyone begins racing at the
    same moment.


    Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the
    exact same moment !

    Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of
    cars on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800 feet from the exit
    of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field can't
    see the starter's green flag.

    But with F1 they have light panels located at every
    marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same
    moment.

    Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you
    probably aren't aware but they have a system for the
    VSC which works perfectly well.

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't
    claim to be an expert.

    [snip partial list of flags/panels]

    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
    that?

    "imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine
    what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.

    Do you even know what I am referring to?

    I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
    actually...

    ...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.

    So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
    elaborate on what you don't understand.

    I asked you first...


    Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited
    your knowledge is.

    Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they
    could also utilise in ear tones.

    Yeah...

    ...and a system that informs the TEAMS (not the driver directly) is
    useful in the scenario of a safe restart...


    how?


    What the fuck are you on about?

    I thought you were simply being obtuse but you really don't know
    anything about this do you.

    I suggest you google.

    ...and WTF do you think I was talking about when I referred to in ear
    tones.

    You really are not being very bright.


    Do you need more explained?

    ...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.


    ??

    Fuckwit.



    Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an explanation do you need?

    Again:

    What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?


    For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not
    being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.

    Green is pretty well understood, and the fact that one driver forgot
    his obligation to look at the marshaling signals is hardly an
    indictment of the entire system.


    The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able
    to see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.

    Now you're just make shit up?


    Don't be such a dick. Do you think you can see a light panel clearly
    when looking into the sun, for example.


    What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?

    The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
    also utilise in ear tones.

    They could release white doves... ...but we're talking about what
    they ARE doing...

    WTF are you on about.

    Are you having a mental breakdown.

    I am only talking about what they already utilise.


    ...and the "official messaging system informs the TEAM...


    WRONG!

    ...who would then have to inform the driver that racing is back on.


    WRONG!


    Panels alone leave too much room for errors.

    And yet panels (and flags) have been used successfully for decades
    for everything else.



    Or are you scared to answer?

    Fuckwit.

    LOL

    Confirmed fuckwit.

    --
    Bozo bin
    Texasgate
    Heron
    Enjoy!
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)