To top it all off, some Chinese FPGA development boards complete with camera input, display output (including HDMI), a respectable amount of RAM, and an SD slot have become available for around $20 pre-shipping. These are perfect for implementing small CPU designs as found in older processors.

I occassionally will find a video where someone is using a GPU board to "simulate" (is that the right word?) a DOS machine. They are usually doing
it for gaming. I sometimes wonder if there are any with an actual RS232
serial port that could be used for some BBSing purpose.

I usually lose interest when I realize that I could just use an old
machine, if I don't mind it heating the room in the Summer, or don't mind
that I cannot use nfs networking to access my network shares on a DOS
machine.


* SLMR 2.1a * Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

On 12 Aug 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

To top it all off, some Chinese FPGA development boards complete with ca input, display output (including HDMI), a respectable amount of RAM, and SD slot have become available for around $20 pre-shipping. These are per for implementing small CPU designs as found in older processors.

I occassionally will find a video where someone is using a GPU board to "simulate" (is that the right word?) a DOS machine. They are usually doing it for gaming. I sometimes wonder if there are any with an actual RS232 serial port that could be used for some BBSing purpose.

I'm not sure what they're doing with GPU boards; I think they're mostly used for crypto-mining and the like.

FPGA dev boards typically have lots of I/O pins for connecting with the
outside world. The FPGA design software also usually includes pre-built
modules from the vendor that one can use in one's designs, and most of them have a UART as a pre-built module. With a soft UART at one's disposal there
are a couple of options: MAX232 module ($2 on Amazon) or an ESP-12 module ($15,29 for five on Amazon).

A MAX232 module connects to a UART on one side and DB-9 RS232 port on the other, and handles the voltage differences as well.

ESP-12 modules can be programmed to all sorts of things, but almost all of
them come from the factory programmed to be a WiFi modem. They behave pretty much just like a Hayes-compatible modem, but instead of dialing phone
numbers, one dials internet addresses. They accept AT commands and generate
the usual "CONNECT" and "RING" messages, although there are some additional
AT commands available to facilitate things like searching for and connecting
to a WiFi network.

Either of those would facilitate making an older machine (or a facsimile of one) into a BBS.

Jeff.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 12 Aug 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

I occassionally will find a video where someone is using a GPU board to "simulate" (is that the right word?) a DOS machine. They are usually doing it for gaming. I sometimes wonder if there are any with an actual RS232 serial port that could be used for some BBSing purpose.

i was just yesterday looking at single-board-computers with authentic intel
386 cpus, dos in firmware, network interface and compact flash. it would be possible to go old school with a little novell network or something and not totally eat it in electric costs. there are even hardware serial to telnet devices that pretend to be a modem..

unfortunately they're around $300/ea and the novelty wears off pretty quick if you wanted more than maybe two nodes..

... There is an exception to every rule, except this one.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)

On 12 Aug 2022, Jeff Thiele said the following...

ESP-12 modules can be programmed to all sorts of things, but almost all

yes! these are neat. i have a few of them. more powerful than some of the computers they get attached to ;)

... As a matter of fact, it IS a banana in my pocket!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
* Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (1:120/616)

On 12 Aug 2022, Alexander Grotewohl said the following...

ESP-12 modules can be programmed to all sorts of things, but almost a

yes! these are neat. i have a few of them. more powerful than some of the computers they get attached to ;)

Well, yes, there is that. ;)

Jeff.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 08-12-22 19:53, Alexander Grotewohl wrote to Mike Powell <=-

unfortunately they're around $300/ea and the novelty wears off pretty quick if you wanted more than maybe two nodes..

How much RAM? You could run DesqVIEW and QEMM, if there's sufficient RAM. :)

... There is an exception to every rule, except this one.

:D
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)

I'm not sure what they're doing with GPU boards; I think they're mostly used for crypto-mining and the like.

FPGA dev boards typically have lots of I/O pins for connecting with the outside world. The FPGA design software also usually includes pre-built modules from the vendor that one can use in one's designs, and most of them have a UART as a pre-built module. With a soft UART at one's disposal there are a couple of options: MAX232 module ($2 on Amazon) or an ESP-12 module ($15,29 for five on Amazon).

I don't know why but I often confuse the two... I am pretty sure I did mean FPGA. :)

A MAX232 module connects to a UART on one side and DB-9 RS232 port on the other, and handles the voltage differences as well.

ESP-12 modules can be programmed to all sorts of things, but almost all of them come from the factory programmed to be a WiFi modem. They behave pretty much just like a Hayes-compatible modem, but instead of dialing phone numbers, one dials internet addresses. They accept AT commands and generate the usual "CONNECT" and "RING" messages, although there are some additional AT commands available to facilitate things like searching for and connecting to a WiFi network.

I have seen those. Some folks have used them to get some pretty old
machines (old in comparison to the public internet age) connected to the internet.

Somewhere recently I saw a post on social media where it looked like
someone put something together, about the size of a Raspberry Pi, that was functioning as a real dial-up modem. As mine are getting old, I was
curious about those, but couldn't find it when I went back looking later.
I need to keep my eyes open. :)

There used to be an aussie who would post once a week on his YT channel
about new SBCs, chips, and other project material that had shown up on the various shopping sites during the week. He'd also talk about what he might
be using some for, show some of his project, etc. I have not seen his posts
in a long time but that used to be my source for finding out about such
things.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Pass the tequila, Manuel...
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

i was just yesterday looking at single-board-computers with authentic intel 386 cpus, dos in firmware, network interface and compact flash. it would be po
ible to go old school with a little novell network or something and not totall
eat it in electric costs. there are even hardware serial to telnet devices tha
pretend to be a modem..

unfortunately they're around $300/ea and the novelty wears off pretty quick if
ou wanted more than maybe two nodes..

Indeed. Something else I have run into is that there are some retro things that work so long as you don't upgrade your underlying OS. In my case, I
had a dial up modem working with a DOS-based BBS that was running in
dosemu on a linux box. It was using one of the USB to 9-pin adapters.

As the SBC it was all running on is public facing, I didn't want the
version of linux running under it all to get too long in the tooth. Once I upgraded it, I could never get it all working again.

The dial-up DOS BBS node is still running, but on its own box now that runs
an older version of linux, a built in real serial port, and heats the room
up real good on a summer day. :) The ultimate solution may be to move
that box into the basement where the heat won't matter so much.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * ....we came in?
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

unfortunately they're around $300/ea and the novelty wears off pretty quick if you wanted more than maybe two nodes..

How much RAM? You could run DesqVIEW and QEMM, if there's sufficient RAM. :)

You think like I do on this subject. :)

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Isn't this where....
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

On 13 Aug 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

ESP-12 modules can be programmed to all sorts of things, but almost all them come from the factory programmed to be a WiFi modem. They behave pr much just like a Hayes-compatible modem, but instead of dialing phone numbers, one dials internet addresses. They accept AT commands and gener the usual "CONNECT" and "RING" messages, although there are some additio AT commands available to facilitate things like searching for and connec to a WiFi network.

I have seen those. Some folks have used them to get some pretty old machines (old in comparison to the public internet age) connected to the internet.

The ESP-12 modules are based on the ESP-8266 microcontroller, but the
ESP-8266 has a big brother that itself is not that expensive at all: the
ESP32.

My favorite peripheral for getting an old machine online is the FujiNet,
which is made for the Atari 8-bit family. A couple of things to know about
the Atari 8-bits are that their primary peripheral interface is an SIO port, and that they do not have a built-in RS-232 interface. Peripherals such as
disk drives, cassette drives, printers, and the Atari 850 RS-232 interface
are all daisy-chained off of this one SIO port, which is a serial port and (arguably) a distant ancestor of the modern USB port.

The FujiNet device connects to this SIO port and emulates a number of peripherals, most but not all with some vintage counterpart. It emulates disk drives and cassette drives, sure, but its internet capabilities can be used
to mount a disk image from a server halfway around the world.

It emulates printers in a very fun way, too. In addition to being configurable from the Atari 8-bit to which it's connected, the FujiNet also has a small web server built in which allows for deeper configuration, such as which printer type to emulate. Options include raw Ascii as well as a number of vintage printers If one of the latter is chosen, anything printed from the Atari is converted to a PDF, using a font very reminiscent of the specific printer
being emulated, and then the "printout" PDF can be downloaded from the FujiNet's web server. Additionally, printer #4 can be configured to be a primitive voice synthesizer reminiscent of the era.

A Hayes-compatible modem connected to an Atari 850 RS-232 interface is also emulated, so that older software expecting such a configuration (such as BBS software!) can run unmodified. However, for modern Atari 8-bit software,
that's an unnecessary complication of things, since one shortcoming of the
850 was that it took over the SIO bus when it was in use, which meant that no other peripherals could be used at the same time (yep, downloading files
larger than the available memory was impossible).

To address this, the FujiNet also has a peripheral that never existed before: the N: device. This cuts out the 850 and modem entirely and allows an Atari to open internet connections as easily as opening a file or a printer. Most importantly, perhaps, it does not suffer from the aforementioned shortcoming
of the 850.

As if all of that wasn't enough, the FujiNet also has running on that same microcontroller an emulated Z80 CPU running CP/M, which can be accessed from the Atari.

Jeff.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 13 Aug 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

As the SBC it was all running on is public facing, I didn't want the version of linux running under it all to get too long in the tooth.
Once I upgraded it, I could never get it all working again.

This is the main reason I prefer FPGAs to emulation on an SBC for
public-facing projects such as BBSs, although this has really got me
thinking about security on FPGA-based hardware.

Right now, I have a Raspberry Pi running Mystic BBS software. If a caller
were able to break that software, they could possibly gain access to the underlying OS, which is plenty powerful enough to go exploring my home
network, even without root privileges. It's not public-facing, for that
reason.

A BBS running on an emulated system, itself running on a Raspberry Pi, is perhaps slightly more complicated, but not all that different. If someone
were able to break the BBS software, they might be able to gain access to the emulated system (more on that below). Breaking that, they'd be able to access the underlying modern OS.

A BBS running on DEC OS/8, running on an FPGA implementation of a PDP-8 would be a different story, I thought before writing this, because there's nowhere
to go after breaking the PDP-8 FPGA implementation; beyond that is only hardware.

So a malicious caller would, at best, have a PDP-8 system with a WiFi modem
at their disposal. Could that be used to wreak havoc on the local network?
Yes, given someone with enough PDP-8 knowledge, I now believe it could. It wouldn't be easy, but it would be possible.

Hmm.

Jeff.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

On 14 Aug 2022, Mike Powell said the following...

As if all of that wasn't enough, the FujiNet also has running on that sa microcontroller an emulated Z80 CPU running CP/M, which can be accessed the Atari.

I was reading an article on osnews.com recently about CP/M and how the owners have said it "and all its derivatives" are now free. The author was questioning whether that was restricted to just CP/M derivatives, or also things like DR-DOS, which apparently started out as a CP/M
extension.

I did find this, which seems to clarify things a bit: https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/15/cpm_open_source/

One thing I did not glean was whether or not their are also open source, i.e. if they source is out in the wild or if it even still exists for
some of the projects.

CP/M is very tied to the 8080/Z80 architecture, but customizing it for a particular application was up to the people who created various systems. For that reason, I'm pretty sure that licensing CP/M also granted access to the source code, and there are copies all over the place.

Some of the derivatives and extensions could do things that other
versions of DOS that were out at the time could not do natively, like multitasking.

True. Also, the presence of the "PIP" command, among others, in CP/M traces
its inspiration back to at least OS/8 on the PDP-8, first released in 1971.

Jeff.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (1:387/26)

As if all of that wasn't enough, the FujiNet also has running on that same microcontroller an emulated Z80 CPU running CP/M, which can be accessed from the Atari.

I was reading an article on osnews.com recently about CP/M and how the
owners have said it "and all its derivatives" are now free. The author was questioning whether that was restricted to just CP/M derivatives, or also things like DR-DOS, which apparently started out as a CP/M extension.

One thing I did not glean was whether or not their are also open source,
i.e. if they source is out in the wild or if it even still exists for some
of the projects.

Some of the derivatives and extensions could do things that other versions
of DOS that were out at the time could not do natively, like multitasking.


* SLMR 2.1a * "Mmmmmmmm.....bacon..."
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

On 08-13-22 09:27, Mike Powell wrote to TONY LANGDON <=-

unfortunately they're around $300/ea and the novelty wears off pretty quick if you wanted more than maybe two nodes..

How much RAM? You could run DesqVIEW and QEMM, if there's sufficient RAM.

)

You think like I do on this subject. :)

Great minds think alike. We did it that way back in the day. No reason it wouldn't work now. :)


... There can *be* no "appropriate tagline" for this post.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)

On 08-14-22 11:13, Jeff Thiele wrote to Mike Powell <=-

I did find this, which seems to clarify things a bit: https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/15/cpm_open_source/

Interesting. I have fond memories of CP/M over the years. Ran it on Z80cards in Apples and also a friend's Microbee.


... TagRule #1 One Tagline per message (unless you can get away with more).
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)